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Iran Nuclear Deal

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June

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 2:05 am

I was away from Imamother for a day or two, and when I logged in this morning I expected to find discussion of the Iran deal, but instead... nothing?!?

Does anyone care that a deal was reached with a country whose citizens, just last week, took to the streets chanting "Down with America, death to Israel?" And once this deal is signed, all sanctions will be lifted and Iran will have much more money to fund its terror proxies?

Does anyone actually believe that this will work?

Does anyone think this is eerily similar to 1938 and Neville Chamberlain's "Peace in our times"?

grace413

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 2:18 am

Yes, we care.

No, we don't believe it will work.

Yes, it is reminiscent of Neville Chamberlain.

The whole thing is insane. As an example, even Yair Lapid and Yitzhak Herzog have spoken out against the deal.

Ayn Lanu al mi lsmoch eleh shb'Avinu Sh'Bashamayim (and Hashem's shlichim, the IDF).

etky

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 2:22 am

June - there is an ongoing discussion. It is in the tehillim forum, which indicates how much faith most of us have in this deal.....

DrMom

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 3:00 am

The only people who seem to like the deal are Iranians, Putin, and Hezbollah.

And dyed-in-the-wool Obama supporters.

Kfar

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 3:15 am

Yes, died in the wool Obama supporters who believe despite all real-world evidence to the contrary that this is an enforceable deal with partners we can trust and we can all keep our doctors and our health plans for the same cost or less.

etky

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 3:22 am

grace413 wrote:

This. Let's do our hishtadlut by all means. Lobby congress, bombard the media, organize rallies etc. Ultimately though it is up to Him, and part of our hishtadlut - the main part, I think - should be making sure that we are worthy of deliverance once again from what seems to be an implacable enemy bent on our destruction.

June

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 4:03 am

thanks etky, I didn't see that thread.

DrMom

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 4:33 am

Page 142 of the deal specifies that the US will train Iran in how to prevent their nuclear facilities from being sabotaged or otherwise destroyed. Which means that the US will be helping Iran protect its facilities against an Israeli attack. Perhaps even sharing intelligence with them.

I guess I'm just too stupid to understand why this is a good thing. To my simplistic mind, this sounds horrific and traitorous.

gp2.0

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 10:04 am

DrMom wrote:

That's funny. Could it possibly mean that the U.S. will help protect the Iranian nuclear facilities from being destroyed by Muslim terrorist groups? Nah, that would be crazy.

Obviously the U.S. hates Israel, that's why we send Israel billions of dollars, helped Israel fund the Iron Dome network and provide Israel with their pick of our newest weapons whenever they like in addition to throwing more money at them to develop their own weapons program. The U.S. also provides Israel with billions in financial aid. Speaking of nuclear warheads, the U.S. supports Israel not being part of the non proliferation treaty, which means Israel can develop as many nuclear warheads as they want. The U.S. also supports Israel's stance on the topic, which is to neither confirm or deny that they possess nuclear warheads.

But right, the U.S. hates Israel because...um...because the best way to show support for Israel is to keep doing something that hasn't been working. At all. That's right. Got it.

sneakermom

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 10:50 am

gp2.0 wrote:

The terrorists don't get along. So we support one group against the other?

The Shia Muslims (Iran ) are just as destructive as the Sunni Muslims.

How is this in our best interest?

ally

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 11:18 am

grace413 wrote:

This! Obama keeps portraying the opposition from Tel Aviv (I have no printable words for that) as all coming from Bibi, the ignorant, right wing war monger...all the while, even the proxy he tried to install has come out against the agreement.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 1:18 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

From all I hear, the Iron Dome is a mixed blessing.
And Israel and Jewish Americans aren't the only ones who are very, very concerned.

It doesn't seem to do anything for the US. There were no expressions of good will from Iran.
If Iran isn't compliant about letting in inspectors, then the US doesn't have to call a quorum of security council people to take action (so said the president yesterday) and they will then act. What is the great action option?
....Sanctions!

gp2.0

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 1:46 pm

I'm pretty sure these negotiations were based on information that the public is not privy to. Lets say you're the president and you are made aware by your secret intelligence agency that Iran is secretly developing nuclear warheads unchecked, that they are on a runaway train that will have nuclear warfare capability within the next two years, let's assume this hypothetical example is true, it very well may be. What would you do? Given that information, it would seem a blessing to be given the peaceful opportunity to push off that prospect for 10 years and hope the government will undergo a revolution and change during that time, while actively working to stabilize the economy of Iran.

This is just one possible example of what could have prompted this, I could think of at least 10 more, political, psychological, sociological, economical and so on reasons why this deal may have been the best option out of terrible options. So to hear people saying OMG Obama is an anti Semite fool and that's why he did this just seems like a rote response that isn't taking a minute to think things through.

Sanguine

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 2:34 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

You have no idea what the middle East mentality is. Don't feel bad. No one in America believed that such evil existed till 9/11. These people are so evil. Muslim fundamentalists are total dictators. They torture their countrymen. Women are treated worse than animals. Children are trained to grow up to be martyrs killing themselves with many other people. All innocent. Is ISIS torture and killing shocking to you? What about blowing up buses with "regular people on them?" Is it shocking? How about butchering innocent men in shul? Is it shocking? How about Blindly shooting rockets into populated areas? Is that shocking to you? To kill all sorts of innocent people. Well, this isn't just a few stories. This is called terrorism. Iran is the #1 Terrorist regime in the world. They don't want an American life. They hate America. They keep saying it. Believe it! They're not jealous of American life, but they do want to be a superpower and they won't stop at that.

So now they have Billions of dollars to finance terrorism (what do you think they're doing with the money? Building Kindergartens? NO!! They're going to do exactly what Hamas did with all the aid they got in Gaza. They built for more killing. Hamas took all the cement that was supposed to build Hospitals, schools, Industry... And all they built was terror tunnels. The only industry they had was making more rockets.

Wake up and smell the coffee!! Everything that you learned about civilization doesn't apply to these people. They are the #1 terrorist regime in the world. In no time they'll be rearming Hamas and Hezbollah. When their nuclear bombs are ready they're not going to wait for anyone before they start shooting them. Believe me, the inspections mean nothing. They have 24 days warning before an inspection. Everything will look fine.

I won't insult the US president, but he's in over his head in dealing with these countries. He's thinking like an American. They won't. They have no respect for America (or anything else). They're not grateful for this deal. They're laughing their heads off on pulling one over on America.

Quote:

it would seem a blessing to be given the peaceful opportunity to push off that prospect for 10 years and hope the government will undergo a revolution and change during that time, while actively working to stabilize the economy of Iran.

Sorry - You are living in a dream. Nothing is being pushed off. They'll hide everything in different locations deeper in the ground. Now they have more money to keep working. The government doesn't want to stabilize the economy. The people won't get anything from this. Did the people in Azza? This is more money for weapons.

ally

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 2:56 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

Not sure what part of that is secret. Bibi pretty much announced it at the UN.

And it is really annoying that anyone who opposes the deal is labelled as a reactionary bigot. Because clearly if you don't have blind faith in Obama, especially with his stellar foreign policy track record, then you are just not thinking things through.

gp2.0

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 3:44 pm

ally wrote:

OK, I wasn't aware of that. So what did Bibi propose as a solution to deal with this problem?

It depends on how you oppose the deal. If all you have to say is hysterical name-calling...

alittlebirdie

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 3:52 pm

The chafetz chaim said that milchemes gog umagog will last 3 hours. At the time no one could believe it was possible. Based on current events and modern weapons we now see how imminent this iis.

Barbara

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 4:31 pm

ally wrote:

No, people who refer to President Obama as a "schvartza" (ie, as a "n1gger"), an "anti-semite" and a Muslim are correctly labelled as reactionary bigots. People who don't understand that one can support Israel without being a right-wing hard liner are correctly labeled as reactionary. People who label anyone who doesn't agree with them politically as "anti-semitic" are correctly labeled as idiots (IMNSHO). I am not aware that you have done any of those things.

So, your position is that under the sanctions that you want to keep in place, Iran is and has been developing nuclear warheads "unchecked," that without intervention, it "will have nuclear warfare capability within the next two years."

So, please share with us what is so wonderful about those sanctions? They don't seem to have slowed down what you describe as a "runaway train" towards nuclear weapons.

And in the absence of a deal, which permits constant inspection of known nuclear sites, and inspection with notice (24 days, all told*) of other suspected sites, how do you propose stopping Iran from developing nuclear weapons? You've already said that if the status quo is left in place, they will have them in 2 years. So you must want something else. What is that?

*No, I'm not thrilled with this part of the deal. No, I didn't anticipate it would be much better than this. But the real question is ... what is the alternative?

**IMNSHO, a subtext of this agreement is that the West wants Iranian assistance in connection with ISIS. ISIS is Sunni. Iran is Shia. Need I say more?

***ETA, and what do you propose doing about North Korea and Pakistan, while we're on the topic?

zohar

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 4:46 pm

gp2.0 wrote:

OK, I wasn't aware of that. So what did Bibi propose as a solution to deal with this problem?

It depends on how you oppose the deal. If all you have to say is hysterical name-calling...

Some other possible solutions:
Firstly, double down on sanctions. They were devastating to their economy and they were feeling a lot of pressure. (I know this first hand because a have Persian relatives, some of whom still live in Iran and some who have emigrated within the last couple of years.) The problem with this plan is that many of the other countries won't go along with it and it will water down the affect they will have.

Another option. Threaten Iran that you will give Israel and Saudi Arabia the moral support and material support to attack them.

Anyway, saying that there aren't better options is the dumbest argument out there. Yes,sometimes doing nothing is better. It's like telling someone to give money and guns to someone threatening to kill them because they didn't come up with a better idea.

zohar

Thu, Jul 16 2015, 4:51 pm

Barbara, you mentioned North Korea. Do some research and check out how similar the treaty that the Clinton administration made with the North Koreans is to this one with the Iranian one now. Clinton said at the time that it will prevent them from getting nukes. Look at how that turned out

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