"Women must never speak to rabbis" - ?

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 3:33 am

http://www.ynetnews.com/articl......html

Breslov rabbi: A rabbi must never receive women
Following senior rabbis' alleged relations offenses, Rabbi Shalom Arush slams fellow religious leaders who meet with women seeking their advice or blessing: 'How can a rabbi receive women? Doesn’t he desire? Doesn’t he crave? His evil inclination is much bigger than an ordinary person's.'
Kobi Nachshoni
Published: 07.21.15, 09:56 / Israel Jewish Scene

Rabbi Shalom Arush, one of the leaders of the Breslov Hasidic movement, has called on fellow rabbis not to meet with women seeking an advice or blessing from them, but to settle for a short correspondence with them. According to Arush, it is also women's responsibility not to meet with rabbis.

Rabbi Shalom Arush, one of the leaders of the Breslov Hasidic movement, has called on fellow rabbis not to meet with women seeking an advice or blessing from them, but to settle for a short correspondence with them.

In a lesson he delivered last week in his yeshiva, Chut Shel Chessed ("a touch of grace"), Rabbi Arush said: "You can't twist the Torah. Our Sages of Blessed Memory said: 'There is no guardian for promiscuity' (I.e., person cannot trust himself not to engage in forbidden relations, and should therefore impose commands on himself to prevent it)."

(Archive- Powerful rabbi suspected of relations offenses / Kobi Nachshoni, Goel Beno
Kabbalist Rabbi Ezra Scheinberg, who founded a yeshiva and a devoted community in Safed and became famous across Israel for his alleged supernatural powers, tries to flee the country following suspicions that he raped and molested 10 women who sought his advice.
Full story
Last Thursday, it was cleared for publication that Ezra Sheinberg of Safed is the kabbalist rabbi suspected of raping some of his female followers.)

In a lesson he delivered last week in his yeshiva, Chut Shel Chessed ("a touch of grace"), Rabbi Arush said: "You can't twist the Torah. Our Sages of Blessed Memory said: 'There is no guardian for promiscuity' (I.e., person cannot trust himself not to engage in forbidden relations, and should therefore impose commands on himself to prevent it)."

Addressing women who turn to rabbis, he said: "You are deceiving yourselves. The rabbi is a righteous man, but he has lust. His evil inclination is much bigger than an ordinary person's."

"How can a rabbi receive women?" Rabbi Arush asked. "Does he see the women as geese? He sees the geese as women! Doesn’t he ponder? Doesn’t he desire? Doesn’t he crave? Has he been working on himself for so many years that he is so sacred he can see a woman like he sees a man? That's the reason for everything happening in our generation."

'What does he have to see her for?'
According to the rabbi, the passion of relations approaches a man with a robe of holiness, thereby making him sin despite being a righteous person.

"No one starts with evil. Everyone starts with mitzvot. The evil inclination applies itself through mitzvot. It's a mitzvah to bring people closer, isn't it? A woman should be brought closer, shouldn't she? She should be saved… You start with mitzvot and there is no guardian for promiscuity – and then you reach what you reach, until you reach blasphemy in a shocking manner."

"Men and women must not work together, absolutely not," Rabbi Arush added. "A rabbi's wife must not receive men… and no rabbi in the world is allowed to receive women. It's prohibited!"

He said that even people like the Baba Sali (Rabbi Israel Abuhatzeira, who was a leading Moroccan Sephardic rabbi and kabbalist) and Rabbi Chaim Kanievsy (a leading authority in the ultra-Orthodox society), "who stick to God in levels one can't understand," avoided doing so.

"If a woman wants to, she can write. And they (the rabbis) answer her. Does he have to see her in order to answer? Is he coming to meet her for the purpose of matchmaking? In matchmaking he has to see her. If the rabbi meets the women at a matchmaking reception, because he is looking for a match – that's okay, what can you do? He is allowed to. It's a mitzvah for him to look so that she won't humiliate him. But the rabbi only wants to give her an answer, to bless her – so why does he have to look at her? What does he have to receive her for?"

During the one-hour lesson, the rabbi ruled that it is also women's responsibility not to meet with rabbis. The woman "should write him a letter, whatever she wants to ask, shortly," he told his followers.

"Every woman who respects herself won't go to any rabbi. What for? Write a short question, make a short request – and you'll see God's salvation. A miserable woman is innocent. She thinks the rabbi is a righteous man. The rabbi is righteous, but he has an evil inclination and he deals with thing, endless things – and then you see what is happening in our generation."

Rabbi Arush, who is known as the student of senior Breslov Rabbi Eliezer Berland (who is also suspected of committing relations offenses), added that "we came into this world to pass this test. If we read the affairs and they don’t make us wake up, and if we hear what we hear and say, 'No, but this rabbi is like this' – sir, if you don't take care of yourself, you will also sin!"

He slammed the rabbis who receive women, saying that "there is no reality in which a man who has a relationship with any woman in the world can be a rabbi, can be a rebbe, can be the father of all rebbes. Who allowed him to covet another man's wife?"
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Bolded part is what jumped out at me.

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 3:35 am

So, I can see both sides of the argument. On the other hand (isn't there always a third opinion?) I don't see what's wrong with meeting a woman as long as you keep your door open, and there's someone else in the office. That's what my rabbi does.

chani8

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 3:54 am

What's next? Separate villages for men and women?

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 3:58 am

chani8 wrote:

What's next? Separate villages for men and women?

Avraham and Sarah had separate tents. Maybe that's the next step? (Or maybe that's because Avraham snored. If that was the case, it makes perfect sense.) What

etky

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 3:59 am

chani8 wrote:

What's next? Separate villages for men and women?

I have a better idea. Ship off the women to the new earth-like planet that NASA just discovered. I'm sure conjugal visits can be arranged.

ora_43

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:01 am

He's saying it's wrong to even look at women and find them attractive.The rabbi might covet, even if nothing happens.

I would hate to not be able to talk to my rabbi face to face. How are women supposed to trust a rabbi they've never even talked to? How are rabbis supposed to fully understand women's questions if there's no easy way to ask questions, or to see what they are "saying" non-verbally? What if the question is private?

ora_43

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:03 am

On a different note, I love how every rabbi who commits a crime is suddenly "renowned." I had never heard of Rabbi Ezra Scheinberg, my husband had never heard of him, nobody I know had ever heard of him... but he committed a s-x crime, so he was of course "famous across Israel."

Rolling Eyes

FranticFrummie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:04 am

ora_43 wrote:

I agree. I need to read a lot into body language and interpret tone of voice. I don't look them square in the eye, but sort of look down and glance up (so they won't feel uncomfortable.) I don't have long heart to hearts with them, but when I have an important question, I want to be able to state it directly, so they can ask me a question if they need to.

Iymnok

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:07 am

I could see how this could be good advice for rabbis in certain positions. But a blanket rule? What about shalom bay is, only his side can create horrific situations. When the wife is more knowledgeable in Halacha and has a shaila? What about single girls, they don't always have a father or brother to ask, or wouldn't trust them.
He may have seen that there was danger in the way his interactions were, and is perturbed by the headlines.
It's always smart to set up guidelines and safeguards relative to your position, personality and weaknesses. But such a gezeira can hurt many more than its meant to protect.
There are other possible safeguards.

33055

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:36 am

FranticFrummie wrote:

Who is the third person? I would be very uncomfortable discussing anything personal in the presence of a third person plus wouldn't this destroy any privilege?

alittlebirdie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 4:36 am

The rabbis I go to don't have any problem talking to me

grace413

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 5:15 am

etky wrote:

I have a better idea. Ship off the women to the new earth-like planet that NASA just discovered. I'm sure conjugal visits can be arranged.

I have a better idea. Ship off the men.

Iymnok

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 5:59 am

Squishy wrote:

Who is the third person? I would be very uncomfortable discussing anything personal in the presence of a third person plus wouldn't this destroy any privilege?

Someone who does not understand the language being spoken.

Frumdoc

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 6:03 am

Confession booths like the Catholics, separate enclosed spaces with a thick veil or grill (mechitza) at the level of the face. Both look down so no eye contact, but you can't see the other person's body.

Well, we can learn something from them, surely? ;-)

DrMom

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 6:19 am

I don't get the part about the geese.

Or why he thinks that rabbanim have a greater yatzer harah than non-rabbis. Perhaps they should be in a different line of work...?

To be fair, ynet tends to sensationalize (negatively) anything having to do with Judaism, so I wonder what was actually said.

Debbie

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 6:21 am

Maybe if the woman went to see the Rabbi wearing an oversized housecoat, tichal and a burqa,that would avoid any improper feelings on his part!

GreenEyes26

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 6:49 am

Easy fix: female rabbis.

water_bear88

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 7:07 am

DrMom wrote:

The bit about the geese is from a story in the gemara- I don't remember the details or where it is, I'll ask dh if he remembers if someone else doesn't answer first. I think someone's talmidim asked how he could look at women, and he responded that it was no more arousing for him than looking at a flock of geese.

Agree about Ynet's tendency toward bias.

tigerwife

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 7:20 am

There are plenty of gedarim to put up before banning women from seeing rabbis.

I wonder how it worked when Devorah was Shofetes.

Iymnok

Fri, Jul 24 2015, 7:22 am

tigerwife wrote:

There are plenty of gedarim to put up before banning women from seeing rabbis.

I wonder how it worked when Devorah was Shofetes.

She judged outside under a date tree.