S/o venettini -food stamps

happybeingamom

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 10:27 am

SRS wrote:

We've rehashed this many times. But I think it would be nice if the dan lechaf zechus crowd say out loud three times: The big WE are living about our means and it is unhealthy for the community in the long term.

In other words, one can be dan lechaf zechus an individual while still seeing that the big picture is a community living out of control and creating mass dysfunction.

Liking this is not enough, so I am quoting it.

amother

Coffee

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 10:39 am

seeker- this is probably off topic but this is a pet peeve of my mothers that she has passed on to me. I was recently talking to someone who had been on the receiving end and she expressed the same sentiment- Why is it that people go all out at certain points and then "forget" about the person who they are helping. Wouldn't it be better - instead of giving a lavish setup, give a normal one but buy them flowers for shavuous etc... little pick me ups throughout the years to show that people haven't forgotten about the "orphan bride" or whatever, instead of making sure to go to the shiva, visit in the hospital, whatever and feeling like you are "yotzei" .... call a little bit later and see how they are managing....

end of soapbox.

chocolate chips

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 10:43 am

Is this mentality completely messed up and so far over the line they don't even know there is a line?
You bet.

When I moved here, it made me sick. The standards of dress and labels I couldn't bury myself deep enough to get out of it. Over the past 5 years things have definitely changed but they are still so so bad.
THe fact that buying a kid a shabbos shoe ($85 - yes for my 1 year old kid they wanted $85!!! for a shoe!!!), weekday shoe ($72), sneaker ($60 - at a sale price), summer shoe ($45), crocs or natives ($24), and the list goes on; is considered the norm, is INSANE!

But I have learnt to ignore it. When people come to me complaining of the food they couldn't buy with their food stamps and the horror of not having the gorgeous $80 posh skirt left in their kids size, I just nod and thank G-d that where I shop and what I shop for, is good for me. And my kids.
And when they come to me with "tips" how to screw the government, and knock me down for working full time on the books, and knock my husband for going into a line that means a small pay cut for now but a bigger paycheck in the future and its all on the books, and tell us "you are stupid (I kid you not!) because you will never be making more with all the taxes you have to pay"
I just imagine myself in the future, in my nice huge house that we paid for all on our own, no cheating, no scandals, no lies. Sitting with my kids dressed beautifully with the fabulous stuff I bought for 50% off in the Macys sale, playing nicely in my fancy pool I earned all by my hard-working self, and I will laugh at them still cheating the government to be able to try and "have it all".

There is no such thing as having it all. I will not lie and I will not cheat. Life is not meant to be easy, we have to work that was the curse to Adam Harishon. Did government benefits help me beyond words when I was eligible? yes. But the satisfaction of paying for my things by my self cannot beat that neediness of designer wear, foodstamps, section 8 and venettini shoes (which as a complete side point are SO ugly and often times unsupportive I cannot understand the need to have).

So my answer to you OP is to move on. Ignore them. Believe in what you do and how you are doing it. I won't lie it is hard at times, I have shed many a tear on this. Push past it, know that in reality, no Ferragamo bag or Burberry coat or Venettini shoe is worth what you have - honesty.

amother

cornflower

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 11:00 am

I didn't read this whole thread, but just want to comment.

I buy Venettini's online for $40-45. They last at least an entire season, if not longer.

When my daughter outgrows the shoes I give them in great condition to a friend. Don't judge my friend for dressing her child in venetini's, they're my hand me downs that I bought on sale.

And sometimes I dress my daughter in name brands. I get hand me downs from a wealthy relative. I don't always even know which ones are brand names and which are not. They're also like 3 seasons old but she takes great care of her clothes so they look almost new when I get them.

PS, im not on food stamps, but don't judge people.

Chayalle

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 11:07 am

My DD has very narrow feet, and tends to slip out of shoes. There's a venettini style that came out a few years ago, which I happen to think looks ugly (my own opinion) that has an elastic band across the shoe's width. It's the style that works best for my DD since it holds to her feet well (I could do lace-ups, which, with her personality, would have her permanently walking around with untied-laces, so no thanks). I bought her a pair on myhabit for $39, and I don't think it's particularly gorgeous. But it works.

We're not on food stamps or any programs, B"H. But I wouldn't judge anyone who was. Every family has to set their own priorities on how they spend their $$$ and what's important to them, what works for them, etc...

My DD kills any shoes she wears, because puddles are so fun and tempting, ditto mud and the like. The shoes will likely not last tremendously long, but boots are coming soon.....

My older DD's would get a new pair of shoes in September, and wear them until June. Usually by then they needed the next size. Oh for those days!

sneakermom

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 11:30 am

I hate when people get judgy and so high and mighty about other peoples money.

I also know there is a huge issue with materialism in our communities. (And I fall into it a hundred percent)

There's also ignorance regarding govt programs. Many people were raised to see them as entitlements. It's hard for them to imagine life without it.

And the govt provides zero middle ground. So either you make close to zilch and get all programs. Or you make a tiny bit above zilch and get nothing! There's no bridge that holds your hand a little but until you get to the other side. Many people get stuck. They make peace with staying poor.

Being poor doesn't mean you dont buy vennetini's. It means you don't own a home, go on summer vacation, or buy life insurance.

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 11:38 am

sneakermom wrote:

Being poor doesn't mean you dont buy vennetini's. It means you don't own a home, go on summer vacation, or buy life insurance.

Being poor for many means you cannot pay rent on the apartment you can't afford to own, you never go on any vacation or even pay to go to any attractions, you only take your kids to free parks. It not only means you can't buy life insurance, but you very often can't buy health insurance. It very often means you can't buy food to feed your children. It can also mean you can't afford the $15 shoes in Walmart or Payless, forget about Vennetinis.

There are many different levels of poor, but $80 shoes doesn't come under poor. Unless if you have problems with your feet and you need special shoes. Even then you may not be able to afford the special shoes and you may just have to live with your problems.

sneakermom

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 11:50 am

glutenless wrote:

You're right. There are different levels of poor.

SRS

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 12:02 pm

If I was back in college, I would go back and do my statistics project on correlation on frum consumer budgets against income. It would be an absolutely incredible project that would require some real work, but would unravel this mystery of the universe once and for all. We can discuss the different types of poor, but I'm about 90% certain that if you mapped fashions against income, you would find a near inverse relationship up to a certain income level (or other financial measurement). I had no idea what Venettinis were until I started hearing of their price and popularity among the families that are, by all definitions, less well off and more community dependent.

Fox

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 12:04 pm

SRS wrote:

I'm also quoting this and giving SRS credit for saying in two short paragraphs what would have probably taken me 15 screens' worth.

I'll just add that I find all this concern with social welfare programs to be a bit disingenuous. The amount of waste, mis-management, fraud, and plain ol' greed in these programs is a drop in the bucket compared to similar problems that exist in the area of farm subsidies and defense spending.

Yet it appears that the government separates out all Imamother tax dollars for the sole purpose of subsidizing food stamp and Section 8 cheats. What an amazing accounting system they must have!

Notsobusy

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 12:10 pm

sneakermom wrote:

You're right. There are different levels of poor.

Thank you. It's just so frustrating to hear people complain about how they are so poor, there's no way they can pay tuition etc. and then have them tell you about the new furniture, shoes, clothes, sheitel, jewelry etc. they absolutely needed and there is no way they can live without it, because it's just not possible. I've had those conversations with a few different people and I'm so sick of it already. For some reason being frum in the tri-state area means you have to have certain things. Like the lady who's house was in danger of being foreclosed, yet she paid thousands to have it professionally painted, because it looked "disgusting" Rolling Eyes

. She's one of those who has told me that she doesn't pay full tuition because she can't afford it.

And yes, I know I shouldn't look into other people's grocery carts and watch how they pay, but the grocery store I shop at asks you how you're paying, so it's hard to miss it when the person in front of you buying sushi and salmon and all kinds of prepared foods answers "family first". And it does hurt when my husband and I work like dogs, earn too much money to get any programs (B"H) and I have to scrimp and check every price in the grocery store and only buy the cheapest items. And maybe I can excuse the first person, she's sick, she has company, it's for a special occasion, etc. etc. But when it happens again and again and again and again, it's a little less easy to explain and yes it hurts. Sorry, I'm human.

(sorry, I've been having a few very difficult weeks money wise, so I'm on my soap box right now)

Hashem_Yaazor

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 12:41 pm

SRS wrote:

Another interesting project for your high school child, should they engage in any actual real research projects or papers, would be to drive to various non-Jewish communities and survey them on popular brands and styles. Has your average person that identifies as lower income, middle income, upper income, ever heard of these brands? What shoes do their children own? What type of clothing do they desire?

Air Jordans Wink

amother

Cyan

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 1:00 pm

SRS wrote:

Obviously this is completely anecdotal, but don't be so sure that frum people are so unusual. I've taught in inner city public schools, where an overwhelming majority of the kids qualify for free or reduced price lunch, and they all have their $200 Air Jordan's or whatever popular fancy sneaker it is this year and they all have the latest gadgets, and they go to the McDonald's across the street to buy lunch rather than the free or $1.50 lunch they would get at school.

amother

Blonde

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 1:08 pm

glutenless wrote:

I'm totally with u on this!! My husband also works on the books fully so we don't qualify for programs but we don't make a lot of money and I feel u... I have a family member with food stamps wic vouchers section 8 Medicaid and is always complaining she doesn't have money! But when it comes to buying a wig she needs one for 2500$ Or vacation.... She doesn't spend a lot on clothing though.
So yes I'm frustrated too ....

SRS

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 1:22 pm

amother wrote:

A few things, because I know exactly what bad spending habits you are referring to. Yes, you see the air jordans and some gadgets and lack of frugality. But you do not see the weddings and a lot of the other stuff we do, so the lack of frugality is a lot more limited. Secondly, the Millionaire Next Door (recommended book) does not spend like this demographic either. But that is exactly the point. The frum spending habits are bad spending habits and they will get the community nowhere and will leave a lot of people high and dry when the party is over. People who get out of poverty don't get out by emulating what they saw growing up. They get out by taking note of what fiscally successful people do.

I want to see a turn towards more personal financial responsibility and frugality because I think that it reflects well on Torah society and I think it is necessary to be able to perpetuate what makes Torah society what it is. We are hurting our ability to be able to provide Jewish education and other good things when we waste our money chasing gashmius.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 1:38 pm

SRS wrote:

The wedding industry has worked its way In there too, and you should see the craziness that goes on with the funerals (which definitely does NOT happen in frum communities because we actually have rules about that). I totally agree that we need to tone things down and that there's definitely a serious spending probelm in our communities, I just don't think we're any worse than anywhere else. Every segment of American society is afflicted with it. It just seems worse because we know our own and see the warts up close and because to some extent, we justify it under the guise of religion.

SRS

Mon, Aug 31 2015, 2:05 pm

I'm fairly certain it is worse, mostly because it is subsidized by other generations and because we have people who make nothing living next to multi-millionaires. I grew up in an area not known to be wealthy. The occasional kid had a swatch watch (my NY cousins sent me two of them), there was pressure to wear Levi's, people wanted British Knight shoes. But you the fashion trends were within the income level of the population. And other things just simply did not exist like sleepaway camps, 400 people weddings, day camps for the most part, fancy vacations by enough people that it was a trend. . . . So, yes, there are always people that push the envelope. But the envelope can only push so far when the parent or parents have to finance it themselves. We mix in grandparents, tzedakah funds, and it is out of control in a different way.

Regarding funerals. . .yes, thank goodness for the takanah in the times of the gemorrah times. But spending at death is a lot different than providing 5 figure annual support for a young couple that isn't expected to become financially independent until into their 30's if that.