A horrifying case of child abuse..."natural" parenting

Jeanette

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 10:59 am

amother wrote:

Um, what was she supposed to do exactly? There is no cure for whooping cough. Antibiotics only work to make the person not contagious.

Unless you are saying she is abusive for not vaccinating...

This is actually a good question.

So let's give her the benefit of the doubt and say that with the older two she didn't realize at first that it was more serious than a common cold, and by the time they developed the "whoop," you're right, there are not many effective treatments available beyond supportive care.

But she also had a BABY in the house who contracted it after her older siblings. So this mother had ample time to realize that her baby was at risk. Again, it was probably too late at that point for antibiotics for the older ones and even vaccination for the younger one would not have helped since it was already incubating. But at least she could have started antibiotics for the younger one to minimize the course and duration of the disease. She already SAW what it was doing to her older children and babies are at much higher risk of repiratory failure.

Also I don't get the whole "Ani maamin be'emunah sheleimah" thing. Why do you need to hold on to your FAITH in naturopathy? I've seen this expressed among frum natural advocates as well. Medicine is about doing what works. If one approach is not working you try something else. You don't keep "believing" in your path and trusting that your faith will be rewarded.

ETA: I just reread and see that there was actually a three-week spread from when the first and second child contracted pertussis, and by that time the older one's cough was already "scary." That was enough warning for her to realize the risk to her TWO younger children and early enough in the course for antibiotics to be effective for the younger two.

FranticFrummie

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 11:25 am

I have to share this great story. A dear friend of mine practices herbal medicine and accupuncture, mostly just in a supportive sense.

One winter I got a really bad cough and sinus infection. I showed up on her doorstep and wanted to know if she had anything in stock that could help me. She took one listen to my cough, and said "You should see a doctor". I told her "But you ARE a doctor." and she said

"No, I mean a REAL doctor!" LOL

G-d bless her, at least she's honest. Wink

Rutabaga

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 11:41 am

Where was the father in all of this?

Heather wrote (paraphrasing) that at one point he told her he was worried that a child was going to die and it was time to go to the hospital. Apparently her reaction was to feel unsupported. But really, if you have a choice of hurting your wife's feelings or saving the life of your child, what would you do?

I don't get it.

sourstix

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 11:47 am

I think what people want and all of us want is to protect ourselves and our families. its not that some are more natural then others. its that the ones who utilize modern medicine realize that it is limited and a blessing at the same time. its not replacing hashem. we dont put our trust in medicine or doctors. we know they studied and are using studies to understand health. can medicine be overused? of course. but I do think it takes our common sense to realize and remember that doctors are only human. and what the "natural" think is that doctors are evil. thats were they are going wrong. (obviously more issues) bashing doctors and medicine wont make them go away. in the end we all need them for the better or worse. were in the hands of hashem. I have found some doctors to be tremendous yirei hashem. they will say a tefilla before giving a shot to a child. that is called someone that loves to help and realizes that hashem is the true rofeh. dont get me wrong I am not naive that doctors have seriously harmed people. I still do think that bashing them and not using common sense is a disserve to whoever doesnt use them when needed. as in this case. this mother is so lucky that noone died. I hope she doenst learn the hard way.

sourstix

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 12:37 pm

yes I know a woman thats natural minded. and her kids dont wnat to eat any of her food. she cuts out anything that has some taste in it. so no sugar. but she uses xylitol. but her kids dont like her food. and then she is left fighting with them about every bag of supersnacks. goodness! I feel so bad for those kids. they are so skinny scrawny, most are underweight and not height apropriate. she still wont see that shes nuts! she has been like this since a teen. and married with her extreme ideas. her husband brings home normal nosh and refuses that she shouldnt give it to them. he makes sure to give them. now I call that lacking shalom bayis. but hes not giving in to all of this. so she does her thing and he does his thing. and she wont give her kids dairy bec she claims they all cough bec of it. ok. so when they arent coughing he buys cheese and just gives it to them. I commend him dealing with it this way. cause no amount of talking changes her mind. shes stuborn nature. but a nice person in other ways. she just got caught in nonsensical stuff. I feel bad for her kids. her kids are so undernourished because of her extreme ideas. why cant all natural minded mothers leave all of that on themselves? give your child a choice when they are grown? I know children that wnet throught this and resent their parents for it. dont make exteme decisions for your kids. let them grow up and decide for themselves.

amother

Babypink

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 12:58 pm

I know someone (frum) whos child had some sort of bad rash (not life threatening). She didnt take him to a doctor so she treated him with homeopathy for hives. She took him off tons of food because she thought he was having an allergic reaction. The child was terribly itchy. She finally realized it was poison ivy (or so she thinks) He asked his mother to give him real medicine (benadryl) but she wouldnt. The school asked her to give him something because he was terribly uncomfortable. She stuck to her guns and used oils and bath soaks and homeopathy and what not. Her child was miserable but she feels she was triumphant. I heard her tell me the story herself.

sneakermom

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 1:14 pm

This lady legitimizes her abuse by claiming it's simply her belief in alternative medicine.

I don't buy it.

To me it seems that she is very very ill. Something like maunsheson by proxy. She gets pleasure out of her kids being sick. The attention she gets. And the power she has to make them suffer.

Don't be fooled by her care and devotion. It all serves her real purpose to dominate and sicken these kids.

Sick. Sick. Sick.

This is not borderline abuse. It's real abuse that's made to appear innocent.

mommy3b2c

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 1:25 pm

sneakermom wrote:

I agree. Was also going to say munchausen by proxy. The natural version. I read a few more articles by her and her focus is on herself in every single one.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 1:41 pm

spring13 wrote:

Some interesting stuff comes up when you look this story up:
http://www.naturopathicdiaries.....buse/
http://scienceblogs.com/insole.....ally/
https://www.reddit.com/r/skept.....ing/?

People have been reporting her to CPS in Michigan for a couple of days. I'm guessing she's had contact.

OK, I shouldn't have clicked on those links, but some of the reddit comments are hilarious.

"Does she not know ANY history? Oh yeah the Black Death was stopped by my ancestors taking Root of B***s*** in diluted form."

"What parent would volunteer their progeny for natural selection?" "The kind that gets naturally selected against."

amother

Purple

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 1:43 pm

Sourstix, extremes are never healthy. I try to be natural minded when I can when it comes to food (not when it comes to illness!) but at the same time realize that depriving my kids won't do any good. And the social ramifications of not being able to have what other kids have are more damaging than having some junk once in awhile. I spend a lot of time (my own time, my own choice, no impositions) trying to find healthy foods that taste good and even my husband admits that my cooking is pretty good Wink

I don't like buying snack bags that are overloaded with junk, but the once in awhile that my kids are with me I let them choose junk. They get shabbos party on shabbos.. etc.. And more than enough treats during the week, including candy, but I try to buy those without artificial flavoring. I find that by making sure that the meals I serve don't have junk in them, I'm not as concerned when their treats aren't that healthy.

My long winded point is - everything in moderation.

ora_43

Thu, Nov 05 2015, 1:51 pm

I'm glad to see that many people were talking about reporting her to CPS. I don't know that CPS can do anything about this specific story, but at least someone will have an eye on the family. Idiot mom who's willing to let her kids suffer horribly for her beliefs + pushover dad + homeschooling = disaster waiting to happen.

(that's not meant as a dig at homeschooling, just that if a family is abusive, homeschooling can help keep it under the radar. but they won't be under the radar anymore.)