San Bernardino shootings, today. Terrorism or not?

Raisin

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 4:50 pm

Amarante wrote:

It's not the point to me since, at least in America unfortunately, there are a lot of mass execution killings going back years - Charles Whitman in 1966 went to a high tower at the University of Texas and killed 14 people and wounded 32 others. School shootings - movie theater shootings. All the shootings in work places

As I said, I separate these kinds of random acts of mass violence from hate crimes or terrorist acts even if the person gives a twisted "political" reason for carrying out the act.

The recent terrorist activity in Paris was terrifying because it showed that there was a cohesive well funded group that was able to carry out a very sophisticated coordinated expensive act which was intended to demoralize the population by terrorizing them.

Perhaps I'm blas? but there is nothing "terrifying" to me about two random hate filled crazy individuals who choose to shoot up a workplace. I don't spend time or mental energy worrying about being shot by a random lunatic - whether that be a self proclaimed isolated "terrorist"; a gang member or just some lunatic who happens to want to shoot up my workplace or the mall on a day I happen to be there.

I do worry about organized terrorists because of the implications they have on destabilizing governments and foreign policy implications.

I think terrorists acting alone, as seems to be the case here, and as is happening in Israel, are much more terrifying. There is no real way to intercept them.

Amarante

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 9:20 pm

Raisin wrote:

I think terrorists acting alone, as seems to be the case here, and as is happening in Israel, are much more terrifying. There is no real way to intercept them.

For me personally, the shootings in San Berdoo are no more terrifying than hearing about any mass shooting done by a lone maniac or hearing about a random person shot in my neighborhood.

I can't live my life worried about a very remote possibility that I will be killed by a lunatic because the odds are that I am more likely to be killed by a random act of violence or in a traffic accident.

The shooters didn't single out anyone based on any criteria except being in the wrong place. I read that one of the victims attends the same mosque as the shooters.

Perhaps it's a distinction without a difference but that's how I divide it. I remember how chilling it was years ago during one of the first airplane hijacking before even Israel had security when the hijackers separated all the people with Jewish names. That was chilling to me even though I was not involved because they were separating Jews.

But these lunatics were indiscriminately killing anyone so to me its just another meaningless act of violence.

I don't know but perhaps ironically Israeli existence is safer in terms of being shot by normal criminals or lunatics. Therefore, all or almost all of the violence is political. Where I live people are shot, knived or attacked fairly frequently by both criminals and mentally disturbed people.

wiki

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 10:07 pm

Amarante wrote:

Perhaps I'm blas? but there is nothing "terrifying" to me about two random hate filled crazy individuals who choose to shoot up a workplace. I don't spend time or mental energy worrying about being shot by a random lunatic - whether that be a self proclaimed isolated "terrorist"; a gang member or just some lunatic who happens to want to shoot up my workplace or the mall on a day I happen to be there.

I do worry about organized terrorists because of the implications they have on destabilizing governments and foreign policy implications.

So interesting you write this, Amarante, because I often find myself agreeing with you.

And in this case, I find this attack very terrifying. What makes it terrifying was that Syed Farook was American-born, college-educated, working for five years as a restaurant health inspector, married with a baby, and coworkers thought he was a normal guy. And in half a week of reports of searching their online accounts, it seems that they left very, very little trail of red flags before the day of the attacks.

Yet, under the veneer, he had self-radicalized to ISIS ideology.

There is hardly anything our government can do to prevent attacks like these ones. That's terrifying.

Last edited by wiki on Sat, Dec 05 2015, 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total

Amarante

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 10:27 pm

wiki wrote:

I'm not in disagreement really because f course an action like this is scary and as people have written, it is in some ways more difficult to track isolated home grown terrorists who don't "chatter".

However, America has so much senseless violence that I personally am not more terrified by this particular mass shooting than any others which were ostensibly done for non political reasons. I just can't differentiate in terms if impact on my life between the shooting of those kindergarten children in Connecticut or the mobile theatre shooting or the list in the US is endless. And that's not counting lunatics and evil people who kill or maim on a smaller scale.

So these people cloak their insanity in political rhetoric versus the gang members versus the mentally disturbed individual who threw someone in front if a subway train.

I don't know. Except for the propaganda impact, that ISIS might have in terms of using it, it doesn't seem more significant than other horrendous violent acts.

I am much more frightened about geopolitical upheaval and political destabilization that might drag the world into another global war. Or worse, in terms of renegade countries using nuclear weapons. Or chemical warfare on a mass level. That is the stuff that gives me nightmares.

Mevater

Sat, Dec 05 2015, 10:35 pm

wiki wrote:

On Sunday he will give a big speech on the subject. Nytimes reports that this aims for now are:
--Increased airport security at foreign airports in countries with higher risk of terrorists, asking questions before passengers board planes to America (maybe El Al style or something)

These people lived in the USA, they didnt recently come from abroad.

wiki wrote:

--Increased working together with Mosques and asking them to work together with the government to detect radicalizing people, and to spread an anti-ISIS message

These people's terrorist plans were a surprise to all, S U P P O S E D L Y, even close relatives, thats what theye saying anyhow.

wiki wrote:

--Encouraging Americans to report suspicious activities of neighbors

These peoples relatives, neighbors, and co-workers were clueless about any terrorists plans.

Rolling Eyes

We're doomed.

etky

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 12:41 am

Amarante wrote:

I get what you're saying. If the lone wolf attacks manifest the same way, with the same frequency as the regular loony attacks then they are no scarier. However, if they proliferate enough and if the terrorists resort to the type of unstoppable, primitive attacks that we have been having in Israel and that occurred last night in London, for example, that will create an environment of pervasive fear and suspicion.
It all depends on scale. Today I saw a headline in the paper according to which 1 in 5 Israelis know a victim of the recent terror wave. I myself know at least five victims because I live in a very high risk area and my entire social circle have kids in the army. Nearly half of Israelis will avoid large Hannuka events because of fears of a terror attack. Experts estimate that nearly 80% of children who have seen footage of terror attacks (which are all over the media) have experienced some degree of trauma. So though the attacks are low-level and do not result in mass casualities they are having a profound effect on Israeli society (and the economy in certain places).
Obviously the US is a huge country while Israel is a tiny, interconnected place so we feel each attack more acutely. Still, if ideological/religious attacks like this one become commonplace in the US or Europe- which is the goal of the terror organizations, they might generate far reaching social, economic and political changes. It all depends on what develops and at this point no one knows what will be.

DrMom

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 1:09 am

Mevater wrote:

wiki wrote:

--Encouraging Americans to report suspicious activities of neighbors

These peoples relatives, neighbors, and co-workers were clueless about any terrorists plans.

Rolling Eyes We're doomed.

We're doomed.

Also, while it's nice to give some lip service to the idea of reporting suspicious activities, such actions are not supported in practice. Those who reported and responded to "Clock Boy's" suspicious "school project" were publicly demonized as Islamophobes by the White House and the press; Obama had not one positive word to say about those who tried to prevent a possible terrorist attack in a public school; he publicly shamed them. Now the AG has declared that the DOJ will investigate those who conducted his arrest. If those same people saw something suspicious today, do you think they'd report it? I doubt it.

Oh, and can someone remind me why are there still people who still think that letting in tens of thousands of unvettable Syrian assylum seekers is a good idea?

MagentaYenta

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 1:49 am

Mevater wrote:

Anyone else think that if Obama doesn't make USA citizens feel secure that he's doing everything he can to prevent acts of terror, he will hand the next presidential election to the Republicans?

No I don't think that way. I think that there are unreasonable expectations about what the President can do about gun violence and keeping terrorists out of the US. He has no control of a US citizen becoming radicalized here regardless of what faith they choose to follow.

As I said earlier gun control is going to come from our elected congress people and senators and on a state level as well. As long as citizens vote for candidates who don't support extending gun control laws nothing will change.

Any politician is going to need to tread lightly when it comes to justifying surveilling a US citizen based on religion or ethnicity.

Raisin

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 6:33 am

Amarante wrote:

I also think the chances of being hurt in a terrorist attack are pretty minimal. But taking your arguement, the victims of the paris attacks, the attack in London last night, and every attack in Israel were also random. Unless the paris terrorists really hated rock music or people eating in cafes. I can see some might argue it was an attack on western culture - but we all partake in western culture to some extent.

I can also easily envision a scenario where the san bernadino attackers decided to attack the nearest JCC. Sad

Amarante

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 7:55 am

Raisin wrote:

For me, Paris was terrifying because it could only be accomplished by having well funded well organized well trained people carrying out a plan that was planned for a long period of time.

The coordination was terrifying. I'm not an NSA analyst but I assume that operations like that can only occur with support from governments hostile to the West and Israel and funded by powerful wealthy interests. These are not Ma and Pa operations.

DrMom

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 8:09 am

Amarante wrote:

Wrong. 9/11 was planned by non-state actors. You don't need to be super-wealthy to take flight lessons. The Paris attackers used PlayStation 4 gaming consoles to communicate during the operation. No fancy equipment needed.

And even if you need money:

ISIS takes in $1-3M a day in oil revenues from the Mosul area alone. You don't need to be a state with a formal treasury and ambassadors and a nice capital building to wreak havoc on civilization.

Amarante

Sun, Dec 06 2015, 8:18 am

etky wrote:

My reaction is more personal than globally analytical.

I think your statistics regarding impact in Israel are analogous to criminal violence in the US. I don't know exact statistics but in the US a very significant percentage of people have been personally impacted by criminal violence.

I am a very low risk person in terms of danger but my best friend and I were held up at gunpoint around 7 PM going to the Starbucks on Melrose Avenue. I state the location because people who know Los Angeles know that this is considered to be a relatively safe area. Growing up in NYC and living in Los Angeles, I have street savvy and so travel with a sense of danger potential and of course avoid high risk areas. So I'm not even in the category of people who live in statistically high crime area because I have the means to make myself somewhat safer by paying more money for a good neighborhood and having money for a car or in NYC, I could afford a taxi.

So at this point, for me, this is another act of random violence because violence in the US is so pervasive that it already shapes my life to some extent. Of course, I try to live my life as fully as possible since there is potential danger everywhere but I have restricted myself based on potential danger from common criminals or insane street people and so this particular mass killing doesn't alter my view of my safety in the world. And even taking reasonable precautions isn't enough sometimes. My Bubbe was mugged years ago in mid morning on Avenue K and East 8th Street in Brooklyn. Again, I give the location because it is considered to be a relatively low crime area. My next door neighbor's son disappeared with his girlfriend some years ago and it was presumed they were snatched and killed by someone. These are just violent incidents off the top of my head.

These are just my personal views of how it changes my life. I am not trivializing it and perhaps it represents the start of a new phase.

So while acknowledging that this was an act of theoretical terror, it didn't personally terrify me more than reading about the man who was stabbed about 1/2 mile from me in a shopping complex by a random lunatic.