What exactly was given at Sinai? (threads merged)

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Motek

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 4:23 pm

amother wrote:

It was said above that the mishna and gemara were given at Sinai.

I've repeatedly posted that Moshe was taught the mitzvos, yet you persist on asking the same question over and over.

Quote:

By the mekoshesh, it says explicitly that they didn't know what punishment to give him, so certianly it wasn't given at Sinai.

They knew he was chayav misa since they knew the law that mechalel Shabbos is chayav misa. The question was what sort of death. Why Moshe was told this detail now, I don't know. I can try to find out.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 4:43 pm

Motek,

Thanks for putting up with me.

I'm just a bit confused by what you said. A while earlier you said (bolding mine)

Quote:

he was taught the MITZVOS with all their details as later elaborated on in the Mishna and Gemara. Mishna and Gemara are Torah sh'b'al peh and I wrote above that he received that.

To me the bolded portion reads as Moshe received the Mishna and the Gemara. Now, the Mishna and gemara have references to "future" events. So did he get the mishna and gemara or not?

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 4:45 pm

Motek wrote:

Thank you Motek. I appreciate it.

Motek

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 4:47 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for putting up with me.

sigh, I am running out of patience though ...

switch the bold to:

Quote:

he was taught the MITZVOS with all their details as later elaborated on in the Mishna and Gemara. Mishna and Gemara are Torah sh'b'al peh and I wrote above that he received that.

amother

Mon, Jul 16 2007, 5:00 pm

Great! I think I got it now. Sorry to seem like such a ditz.

So, Moshe got the Mitzvos, including the details that are in the Torah Sheb'al peh. But he DID NOT get historical information. Hence, for example, pirkei avos was not given to Moshe.

Do I have it correct now?

amother

Tue, Jul 17 2007, 5:41 pm

Motek,

Did I get it right?

Motek

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 10:47 am

yes

amother

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 7:27 pm

Thanks, Motek.

But how does what you said square with the gemara in Berachos which says that the Navi, Mishna and Talmud were all given at Sinai?

Motek

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 9:10 pm

quote the exact source and I'll b'n check it out

amother

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 9:25 pm

I have to ask my DH. I'll get it for you and quote it with the location.

Motek

Wed, Jul 18 2007, 10:11 pm

Since you're consulting with your DH, how about asking him your questions and reporting back with answers?

amother

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 10:30 am

The Gemara is at Berachos 5a. It states there that the Aseres HaDibros, the Torah, The Navi and Ketuvim, the Mishna and the Gemara were all given at Sinai.

My DH takes it very literally. He believes that *everything* was given at Sinai. When I brought up my objections, he shrugged and said "it's a kashya."

Sorry, "it's a kashya" may work for him, but it leaves me less than satisfied.

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 10:59 am

My husband says: 10 commandments, 613 mitsvos, all the Torah up to there, all the mishna has been taught but not given word for word + all the midrashim and some things from the gemara. Navi was given to each prophet. Ketuvim written by david, shlomo...

But he says some say what happens after was given in advance to Moshe, others say written by Yehoshua. He also heard someone not satisfied with these explanations was told the letters were given but not in order.

I have no personal opinion on the matter Tongue Out

Ruchel

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 1:27 pm

it's b'h not so easy to tear down someone's emuna, especially men because they learn more than women.

It is good to ask questions. I ask my husbands many questions, most of them are answered right away but sometimes he needs to look for sources.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 9:09 pm

amother wrote:

What kind of an answer are you looking for? Confused

amother

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 10:22 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

amother wrote:

What kind of an answer are you looking for? Confused

One that explains the gemara and yet doesn't run into the problem of Moshe and the rest of Klal Yisroel not knowing about events yet to come.

TzenaRena

Thu, Jul 19 2007, 11:00 pm

I just heard an explanation of something somewhat similar today, on the Living Torah video. The Lubavitcher Rebbe asks: The Bais hamikdash is called "Bais HaBechira", because it is built in the place "that Hashem shall choose".(hamakom asher yivchar Hashem) This indicates that the place was not yet known, and the decision of where to build the Mikdash was open, as we see that initially, the Shechina came down upon the Mishkan, which wasn't on Har haMoriyah, but traveled to different places, and even was set up in different locations..

Yet, we know that the Mikdash was built upon the very place that the Avos brought their offerings, the Akeidah took place and Avraham sacrificed the Ram, where Yaakov Avinu laid down to rest, and then built a mizbeach, and before that Noach built a mizbeach, and before that Kain and Hevel brought their offerings, and before that Adam brought a korbon, and Adam himself was created from the earth of that spot! So that it appears the place WAS known, and destined for the Bais Hamikdash. So why do we call it Beis haBechira, built in "the place Hashem shall choose"?

However, the Rebbe answers that it is no contradiction because the Avos knew through prophecy that the place would in the future become holy, and therefore built their mizbechos there. That is not what effected it or made it destined to become holy, rather it was because of their prophetic knowledge that it would someday be, that they brought their korbonos there.

Motek

Mon, Jul 23 2007, 5:18 pm

check out this article called, "How Did the Torah Exist Before it Happened?"

http://www.chabad.org/library/.....10124

a few points from the article (but please see the entire article):

Quote:

Not only Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, but also Noah and even Adam knew the Torah. Concerning Noah, the Torah itself writes clearly that G-d told him to take onto his ark "of the animal which is ritually pure (tahor), seven, seven." Apparently, he was expected to know for himself that pigs are not ritually pure and cows are.

Quote:

As the Torah exists in the spiritual realms, it has more than one application. After all, the Torah is not just G-d's knowledge and wisdom -- it is His will and inner desire. How that desire meets this world depends on many things. If, for example, the Jewish people would not have tolerated worship of a golden calf in their midst forty days after having heard the Ten Commandments, there would have been no need for a Tabernacle. Each one of us would have been a perfect temple for the Shechinah (Divine presence) and G-dliness would have dwelt on earth in a much simpler way.

If, for another example, the spies had have come back from their tour of Canaan and discussed matters with Moses and let him make the report, we would have walked into the land with Moses himself at the lead and the Era of Moshiach would have begun right then and there -- with Moses starring as the final redeemer.

But the Jewish people chose a different way to channel the Divine Will. And so it is with every situation of free choice we are given: We choose then and there how the Divine Will is to be channeled into our world.

So what Adam, Noah, Abraham, etc. knew, contemplated and studied was the Divine Will and Wisdom. They knew it, they taught it and they conducted their lives accordingly. What they didn't know -- and Moses did -- was how that Divine Will and Wisdom would be actualized in the material plane. Because that hadn't happened yet.

amother

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 12:08 pm

I had always believed so. However, I was speaking with a friend of mine who is quite frum and she informs me that the Torah we have today is not the same one we got on Har Sinai. She insisted that there were parts that were added later or parts that were lost/changed throughout the ages. I was dumbfounded, but I didn't have any proof to offer to defend my view.

Is the Torah that we have today the exact same one we got on Har Sinai? And if so, how can I prove it to her?

Thanx,

amother
Threads here merged

Ruchel

Tue, Oct 23 2007, 12:12 pm

she probably meant some parts were WRITTEN later

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