Making a wedding and supporting a young couple

amother

Tan

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:15 am

Sorry I don't have time to read the whole thread so hope I'm not being redundant.

But I'll tell you that when oldest DD was in shidduchim (several years back) we heard of a great boy whose parents were asking around $750 or 850 a month. At that time we felt we could manage $500 to $600 (which was about enough for rent). We told the shadchan, "let us know if he goes on sale." We BH have sons in law who learned for a considerable time and are now in chinuch (one still needs help) and others still learning. But we never offered more than rent.

You should not be committing to more than you can realistically afford, taking into account other children who may be getting married in a couple of years IYH!

There are boys who are not demanding as much. Possibly from "out of town" or "less yeshivish" families, whatever that means.

A young couple in kolel can manage with a combination of kolel checks (which sometimes means going out of town), the wife's job, and whatever both sets of parents can chip in. (And yes, there are boys whose parents participate, but see above.) And whatever government programs they may be entitled to until the wife builds up her earning power in her profession. Plus there are night kolels that pay extra, and there's always tutoring.

So your daughter does not have to five up on what she's looking for, she just needs to be flexible.

But the worst thing you can do is commit to something you can't do.

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:20 am

amother wrote:

A pity you posted anonymously. I'd be proud to put my name to such a great post!

amother

Purple

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:22 am

If you can't afford to support then if your daughter really wants to marry a kollel boy she will need to struggle and get a job and that's the lifestyle she chose. But if she isn't interested she should just look for a working boy who can learn in the morning or evenings.

HonesttoGod

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 10:23 am

amother wrote:

This 5 x over.

A marriage is a responsibility. If a couple cannot be responsible for their income and rent etc then they should not be getting married. Just my two cents on the matter. No one is obligated to give anything whether or not it is "done in our circles" and if you can, that is nice, but only give what you can!
You don't want it to come 5 months down the line, you are paying their rent and their food and expenses, but paying off the wedding and not being able to put food on your own table.

amother

Apricot

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:30 am

amother wrote:

It is not so easy to just look for a working boy if you are floating in the learning crowd. I am from a yeshivish family, my father is a rebbe. I have a professional degree. When I stared shidduchim I was only dating learning boys. After a few years I felt that I was just more mature and in the world than the learning boys and I really wanted to date good solid professional boys. The problem was that those boys didnt want me. They wanted professional famiies more sophisticated girls etc. The working boys that I was redt to were the ones that the Yeshiva system didnt work out for and they were not quality boys. People said oh shes 24 she'll 'settle" for working boy - what about xyz who took a minimum wage job after yeshiva didnt work out for him. I wasn't interested in that. I ended up finding a very nice yeshiva boy who is still in kollel after four years of marriage with neither side helping out at all. The kollel bit with no support is really possible because I had a decent job before I got married. You can't have it all in life. You can't marry off your girls young (before they finish college and have earning potential), have them marry learning boys and not give them any money. The system does not make sense. Where are parents supposed to come up with the extra 1200 a month for three years. However, dating working boys is not neccasarily the answer because you may not be compatible. If money is going to make or break a shidduch the boys parents should say their demands up front. It is not fair to the couple or the girls family to feel pressured.

DrMom

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:35 am

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

Hi all! Our oldest child is dating a boy and we're at the point where $ is being discussed. The parents are asking for $2,000 a month. We cannot afford this, and we decided to counteroffer $1,500 plus incidentals. We can't really afford that either, but maybe if we ask our parents for help, we could manage. My husband doesn't want the $ to be an obstacle for the shidduch, but I say if that's a deal breaker, then goodbye and good riddance! Also, if we do come up with the $1,500, we will have to make THE cheapest possible wedding. So, my questions are:1-is it reasonable to ask for $2,000 a month and 2-where can we make the cheapest possible wedding in Brooklyn if we can keep it down to 300 people?

Another perspective: They should pay *you* for taking this guy off their hands. Esp since your daughter is going to support him by earning a living.

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:37 am

Okay, some of you here are being a bit harsh, and some of the time it's because you didn't read my OP and my comments carefully. I put my kids into more yeshivish schools because a-it was culturally a better fit for our family and b- it was cheaper. Also, in the beginning I did not realize exactly how entrenched the kollel lifestyle had begun. I have been drilling it into my kids heads from the time they could understand, that I don't believe in it, can't afford it. This discussion is nothing new, believe me. But how to fight against the tide? If this is what "everyone" does? Can you not understand how I got stuck in a system I don't believe in. It's not so easy to make stark choices and just say no when your kids happiness is on the line. We're trying to behave reasonably. But for those of you who have been judgemental, I hope you will think about it the next time you are faced with a situation where there are no good options, and all options come with consequences, and you just have to do your best and pick one option. Btw, we are not forcing my fil into contributing, we would be asking, because we know he has the means to do so. If he says no, it's no.

chocolatecake

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:44 am

I think both parents should split the cost of helping the young couple. After all he is your son the same way she is their daughter. The problem with that is that the parents that are already being squeezed by helping out the daughters are not going to now split the cost of their sons and you can't blame them. If you are helping out your daughters I have no problem with you demanding that your sons in laws do the same. However you can not ask from your sons in laws more than you yourself are giving for your daughters.

gold21

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:48 am

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

Im sorry if u feel like were being harsh... I think its a touchy topic for many of us, and its totally not personal Wink

Personally, I was raised in the same bais yaakov system your daughter went through, and kollel was drilled into my head. I went with the flow of my bais yaakov and was not rebellious (Well, for the most part anyway... Lol). My parents never specifically said they were against kollel, though perhaps from time to time they did make comments of that nature. However, we we were raised in a way that made us very aware of how money is necessary in life (I.e. we didnt have much of it Wink

), and we were also raised to be independant thinkers, so 2 plus 2 equals 4.... none of us married long term learners.

Last edited by gold21 on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:57 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Apricot

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:53 am

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

I feel for you and your situation. Its no ones fault personally its the system. If this shidduch does not work out maybe for the future you should make it very clear up front that you can not give 2000 a month. When I was in shidduchim my parents were not in the position to help out a lot. I got a lot more dates as my personal earning potential rose because then people saw that I had the means to support and it didn't really matter anymore that my parents financial situation was.

amother

Lime

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:06 pm

I don't think anyone means to be harsh- I think a lot of us are just frustrated with the system, same as you. As a practical suggestion, maybe your daughter can somehow come up with the extra $500/month by doing some flexible work on the side- ie tutoring, babysitting, or something like that. It's a small enough amount that she should be able to earn it while she's in school, if she really wants this shidduch to work out. I was a full time student and also working very part time when I got married. I think it's doable. Just a suggestion.

Best of luck.

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:18 pm

I was given advice, perhaps bad advice, that if the other side doesn't ask prior to date#1, you don't need/are not expected to offer specific financial info. We did say we would do what we can. Oddly, of all the shadchanim we've dealt with, only one shadchan asked for specifics prior to date #1. This boy wanted $30,000 a year until she gets a job, I said absolutely not and I offered $18,000 a year.

b from nj

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:21 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

Sad to me that these shidduchim sound more like business dealings than a marriage to me Sad

Fox

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:29 pm

First of all, echoing PinkFridge's suggestion, I strongly urge that this be moved to the Yeshivish forum. Hard as it may be for our sisters in other communities to believe, we already know the problems and imperfections within our derech. Your pointing out how much you disagree with certain values is neither informative nor helpful.

At the very least, be willing to post using your screen name and indicate whether you identify yourself as part of the Yeshivish derech.

To wit, I have plenty of up-close-and-personal experience with this scenario: DH learned in kollel for almost 9 years, and I have 3 DDs currently in shidduchim.

Kollel versus Kollel Forever
When I got married in 1985, the lay of the land was much different. If anything, kollel was even more encouraged and valued, but with one important distinction: "learning in kollel" meant 1 year -- or 2 years if the man was particularly gifted or if the couple was especially motivated. Anyone staying 5 years or more was a potential gadol hador! The only reason my DH was able to stay in kollel for so long was because we didn't have children for the first 5 years of our marriage, thus enabling me to work at a fairly demanding job.

Yes, almost everyone can manage a year of kollel. A newlywed couple can live very, very cheaply during the first year or so. I won't go into the advantages of spending the first year of marriage in kollel, but in short, it provides a shot of ruchnius, a Torah-oriented support system, and lots of good role models.

But the economic booms of the late 80s and 90s led to more prosperity, and gradually "learning as long as possible" with extended parental support became a "thing." The current "system" that everyone deries has been in existence for 25 years at most.

Everybody Is Wrong
Yes, the current system where boys' families are able to essentially blackmail girls' families is utterly despicable.

And we've earned every bit of it.

Why? Because we want "good" boys for our daughters.

How do we define "good" boys? By their learning, of course! Oh, we inquire about their middos and whether they have any glaring issues, but their continued success in yeshiva is the gold standard.

What We Should Be Doing in Theory
First, we need to change the way we describe and think about young men. There are not "learning boys" or "working boys." There are boys who may or may not be good matches for our daughters.

Listen, my DH has great fantasies of sitting deep in learning with his future sons-in-law. And I have great fantasties of being a size 6. I'm not saying these are bad ideas, in theory, just that they may or may not match reality.

You don't marry a lifestyle. You marry a person. Depending on circumstances, opportunities, and talents, that person may learn indefinitely or he may become a lion tamer. As a couple, you have to balance each individual's ambitions, dreams, and realities. Far better to marry someone with whom you can achieve this balance than marrying someone who is committed to a particular course of action, darn the torpedoes!

Looking for a "learning boy" or a "working boy" dehumanizes everyone.

Blaming the Schools
I have plenty of quibbles with the schools, but I don't think we can lay all the blame on HS teachers waxing poetic about kollel life and the beauty of learning. Listen, that's what we pay them to do. We expect math teachers to be passionate about math, and we expect English teachers to be proponents of literature.

We don't expect the math teachers to spend a lot of time emphasizing that most of us don't need calculus in our day-to-day lives, and we'd find it odd if the English teachers said, "Oh, books are so expensive and it's a hassle to go to the library . . . it's not really worth the energy."

As parents, we have an obligation to understand and communicate to our kids that Limudei Kodesh teachers are sharing and hopefully transmitting their passion for Torah as well as helping girls understand how much zchus they can earn from their fathers', brothers', and husbands' learning. But there are lots of ways to earn that credit, and kollel is only one.

Practical Advice
* Consider offering support for 1-1.5 years at a level that is doable if not comfortable. That's a very reasonable compromise between what's done "in our circles" and what you can afford.

* Unless DD is carrying 20+ credit hours (in which case she should be finishing her degree in about two weeks), she needs to get a job asap and start saving money. Savings of even a few thousand dollars can make a huge difference during the first year or so of marriage.

* Start working to change your DD's mentality from seeking a "learning husband" to a seeking a husband who will be responsible, loving, and supportive. Yes, being kovea itim is an important reflection of his commitment to a Torah life, and learning in kollel when you start out is great. But a life in kollel is a poor substitute for a mediocre marriage, and marrying someone because you think it will lead to a certain lifestyle, however commendable, is generally not an attitude that promotes great marriages.

* Accept in your own mind that this shidduch may not work out. Yes, your DD may be heartbroken, but she'll recover. If it does work out, you'll have sent the message to everyone involved that you won't be blackmailed.

* If it doesn't work out, stop looking at "learning boys" or "working boys." Look at boys whose personalities and values complement your daughter. When I'm asked what one of my girls is looking for, I say, "A boy who will be a good husband to her," and I describe her personality.

Yes, I've had some crazy suggestions from shadchanim, but I've listened with an open mind and investigated every single one, including a dynamo of a financial services exec who was 12 years older than my DD and only frum for about a year. We ultimately concluded he wasn't for her, but we were resolved to treat every single suggestion as a serious possibility. As an aside, I think this attitude has really helped us with shadchanim, who know we won't be offended by any suggestion, no matter how counter-intuitive.

I"YH, all our DDs will find their basherts at the right time and with as little drama as possible!

MagentaYenta

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:33 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

My daughter is fully aware how difficult this is. I'm hoping she'll be working in her field by the time babies come. My parents are poor. My husband's Dad has a good pension and he doesn't need all the $ to live on. But my husband and I have always been independent, we got little to no help, we were both working in our fields when we got married. It breaks my heart to turn into a beggar now, all because of a system I never subscribed to or believed in.

I have a bit more money than I need to live on in my retirement, that doesn't mean that my children get to determine what I do with that money. (Not that they are involved in my personal finances.)

So what happens when your FIL is gone (and his money too)? Where will you get the money to support your grandchildren in marriage (assuming this system lasts through another generation)?

notshanarishona

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:36 pm

Why not encourage your daughter to marry a boy who is willing to live outside of Lakewood / Ny? That automatically cuts the requested support in half I.e. the "going" support is more like $1000, many times split between the sides which is much more doable.

amother

Oak

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:41 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

I hope I wasn't being harsh. I just wanted you to be clear that this is a very normal thing and that you shouldn't think that your daughter's date is anything out of the ordinary.

amother

Coffee

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:47 pm

I just read thru this thread. All I can say is wow! I grew up wth the system. I chose. Ot to marry a long term learner. We got zero financial support and learned to live independently. I have a brother who is amazing in shidduchim now. He is in Lakewood. My parents won't buy into the system. They told him he will have to go to work one day and if he needs they will help. It is 100% unfair to expect one side to give so much money. A "top" boy who expects this is nothing at all in my book. It's horrible.
Give what u can and UT daughter and her husband will have to figure it out. She or he will have to take a side job to support themselves. If they can't figure that out they are not all ready for marriage.....and don't naively assume u won't have to do this once she gets a job or has babies....life just gets more expensive not cheaper.

amother

Blue

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:48 pm

I got married at 23. my parents did not have a lot of money and were not able to support. Shidduchim was miserable and getting dates was hard. we never reached the point of finances in depth until I met my DH and by then I was finishing up with my degree. for the record, my DH was in law school. this is not an exclusive kollel problem you would have the same issue if both are in college full time which usually happens as most people do not wait until they are in wir low to mid 20s to even start dating!!!

My opinion, is that you should stretch yourself out of your comfort zone a little. Shidduchim are hard and you should extend yourself for your daughters happiness. I would do anything not to have my daughter go through what I did including taking out a second mortgage or liquidating my savings accounts. I do not agree with the system at all trust me but it is your child's happiness on the line. obviously only if they are truly happy and this is a good guy. I would look at this as tuition or living expenses you would have if she were a child in your house. However, do not cross the line of getting into debt over this. If the family insists on an amount and they will not give a penny just because he is their son, and they don't care that you are middle class and simply don't have the money, they do not sound like very mentchlich people. and who wants in laws or mechutamim like that?! they are clearly taking advantage if they do not want to give a penny. that is really not ok. if you don't want to give then you certainly cant make demands. they should work together to come up with a solition.

I agree with the other posters that your daughter should have some more responsibility in this. does she have a bank account? If yes, I would use that money towards support and (not tell the inlaws where the money is from obviously. no need for that). I personally set up accounts and savings for my children and I plan to have them put present money and bar/bas mitzvah money ( not all of it of course) but enough that I can gift them with after they marry for a down payment, living expenses or whatever. and I do NOT agree with the lakewood system so I certainly will not be putting the through yeshivish institutions that blindly promote it as well as cookie cutter behavior.

chocolatecake

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:48 pm

notshanarishona wrote:

If the boy is learning in Lakewood he is not going to just leave. There is no financial gain to leave as the oot paying kollels wont take him. You have to get into a kollel. There are many more people that want to go than there are slots and they wont even look at you till you are married for a few years ideally with a kid or more. The going support that oot boys parents are demanding is less. I would say they are asking 1200 instead of the 1500 that the NY boys parents are. In the Yeshivish circles it is not split in half regardless of where the boy is from and all the boys are learning in lakewood currently and will either will go to Israel after marriage or continue in Lakewood.