Making a wedding and supporting a young couple

MagentaYenta

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:50 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

People are being pretty respectful here and I greatly appreciate that.
Can I suggest in the future though that such a discussion be started in the yeshivish forum? Trust me, you will get some very open talk there too.

No this is a problem that we all face and it's not something that should be hidden or discussed out of sight from the other frum, who are tax payers and supporting programs like SNAP. When we see entire frum communities dependent on govt programs and leading the nation in poverty pockets it's time for all of us to have a convo on the matter. It's not shabbos chicken or the cost of Pesach that makes these people dependent it's a lifestyle that we support via our tax dollars and our religious affiliation.

amother

Orange

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:58 pm

Ahhh...sarahle...take a deep breath....relax. you sound completely overwhelmed. You are assuming all of the worst possibilities and outcomes. Realize that the first shidduch/wedding you make is usually the most stressful. For the first time you're plunged into digging deeply into savings or maybe even debt, something no responsible individual is comfortable with. Your daughter sounds like she has a solid plan. That she only has a half a year left is really laudable. Worst case scenario...even if she doesn't find a job in her field immediately, she can still find something full time. Also, if drastic measures are required, there are still wedding gifts to get them through until necessary jobs are arranged. As for other expectations, I assume you are working with a shadchan; ask him/her about the boy's/family's values or expectations. A lot of your concerns may be alleviated. Hatzlacha!

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:59 pm

Can't address every question, but once again: I have zero control over the type of boy my daughter wants. I NEVER encouraged learning at all, she came up with that one on her own. She even deals with the shadchanim on her own for this reason. All I can do is say yes/no to support and if yes, how much for how long. In dress and behavior our family looks and acts yeshivish, yet I never, never subscribed to yeshivish values. And no, once again, I have no intention of supporting grandchildren unless our financial situation improves drastically. We are planning to request help respectfully, not demanding help from my fil. He is free to say yes or no without any complaint from us. We know he has more $ than he can possibly use for himself, under any circumstances, for the remainder of his life, it's just a question of how he wishes to use. So, to me the learning is irrelevant, it's my daughter's happiness that I'm concerned with, in conflict with our financial situation. Perhaps I am wrong to blame the school system or the general yeshivish system, I always had the choice to get out. But my kids were happy in their schools, I didn't want to uproot them, and I was always just hoping they would have the fortitude to be different and go against the tide. Also, we never imagined shed date seriously so young (almost 21) because, shidduch crisis. We figured by the time she was talking marriage, she'd be already working.For those focusing on asking my fil for help, bear in mind we never asked him for any help, EVER, previously, not as newlyweds, not for Simchas. We are not money grubbers, we make NO demands. We just humbly ask for help now that we've hit the wall, and can no longer do it ourselves. I never intended for things to turn out this way, I always did the best I could with the information I had.

Fox

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:12 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I'm not sure if you're lying to yourself or just to the rest of us.

This is not about your innocent concern over the allocation of government resources. If it were, you'd be equally concerned about the predicted implosion of student loan debt or the myriad of other snout-to-the-trough ways in which people legally syphon money from their fellow citizens.

This is not about your concern with potential chilul Hashem. If it were, you'd be a lot more worried about Sheldon Silver and people double-parking.

I haven't the slightest clue what you mean by supporting kollel learning via "religious affiliation." I can only guess that you mean that you don't want to be associated with people who do things you find unconcionable. If so, the line forms to the left, and it's quite a hike to get to the end of it!

Dressing up hatred with platitudes about your responsibility as a taxpayer may allow you to fool yourself, but it doesn't fool anyone else.

Last edited by Fox on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Amethyst

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:14 pm

I'm so conflicted about this thread. Like some of the other posters, I suffered during shidduchim because my parents couldn't support (at all). Like some of the other posters, I went ahead and got a great education and great job, and was able to support myself well. And at the end of the day, I B"H married a great guy and we are very successful and self-made (with Hashem's help of course).

So on the one hand, I am grateful for the process that I went through, and I see my "supported" friends fighting with the parents and in-laws, and having miserable shalom bayis because nobody developed marketable skills and they are floundering as life gets more complicated.

On the other hand, and this is a BIG other hand, I absolutely went through Gehinnom in shidduchim and it scarred me in an irreparable way (even though I try to work on my emunah that this was Hashem's plan etc). I married late and had to go through some seedy encounters along the way. So a big part of me would just rather fund my kids to get married very young and avoid going through what I went through.

So even though I see the negatives of support, I also see the negatives of turning your daughter into an older single. Good luck.

amother

Apricot

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:29 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

To clarify, this boy is not learning in Lakewood nor does he intend to. He is learning in Brooklyn and intends to learn for 5 years at the outside most. He seems to have a specific marketable skill that he can use without attending college when the need arises. To the commenter who said we should stretch ourselves a bit, but not go into debt, I think that is sound advice and I think with that in mind we can do the $1,500 a month for one year.

It makes no difference if the boy is learning in Lakewood or Brooklyn. The yeshivish system is the same. Brooklyn rent and then babysitting and tuition is way higher than Lakewood. You need more $$$ in Brooklyn than Lakewood to make it. 5 years is a long time to learn, but it shows he is has his head on shoulders that he is saying five years and not forever. Good luck!

amother

Blue

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:35 pm

amother wrote:

yep this is me to a tee!!!!!

I went through hell during those years. I cannot even begin to explain how terrible I felt when all my friends got dates and I barely had any suggestions. it still hurts years later even though I know its all a game.
I cried myself to sleep so many nights and watched my friends move on while I felt terribly lonely. It was horrible.

I also feel like we were so much better off being independent though, in hindsight. and I landed up with a professional and I need $$ and I need comfort and only in hindsight can I appreciate those needs. of course when I was 20, 21 I was just dying to get married and move on. but I am so so happy my husband has a good solid degree and works and we do not ned to struggle as I know that would have been extremely difficult for me as well and would have caused a lot of friction.

MagentaYenta

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:43 pm

Fox wrote:

Well you got that post all wrong Fox. Now remove your emotions and read it from your adult. I hate no one. I see a damaging system that leads to dependency.

As to Mr. Silver, I'm pretty vocal when it comes to frum crooks, whether it be SS or frum slumlords or rabbis who cover up molestations or arsonists who serve minimal time or rabbis who embezzle money.

We are all in the same big tent as frum jews, that's where religious affiliation comes into play, and a large portion of us are taxpayers here in the US. Trust me, as a tax and spend lefty I figure if you can complete the forms and qualify for SNAP or HUD go for it. My concern is generational dependency and a system that barters for brides and is unsustainable. When whole towns full of frum have the highest poverty rates in the country, it's a subject that is worthy of discussion among all frum, just not the members of that group.

In the future please don't misrepresent my feelings or my words.

Last edited by MagentaYenta on Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

Though not to the same extreme you write, my experience was similar to yours. I'm from a large family and my parents were not offering any financial support. Like you, I got my degree (paying my own way) and got a good job, and was able to support my husband in Kollel (still am) - ironically, for much longer than most of my friends whose parents were promising full support for 5 years or more.

Unlike you, I didn't marry that late - which I consider to be Hashem's kindness and Hashgacha. I don't think that someone who cannot support alot will necessarily marry later than those who can. It's all in Hashem's hands. One of my close friends whose parents were promising lots is still single.

Even though I wasn't in the shidduch system that long (about two years) it certainly was painful to be overlooked by all the "top" boys who were demanding lots of support, but you know what? My experience is that Shadchanim and people in the system are propagating a myth - saying you can only get a good shidduch if you have parents promising lots of $$$ whether they can afford it or not. I've seen, with myself and my siblings, that for every boy with those demands, there's another who doesn't demand, so long as you are open minded - maybe he's from OOT, or from a more open-minded family, etc....and he might be more suited to you anyway.

With my own kids, I will B"EH try my best to be realistic and find the balance between giving what I can afford and taking my child's personal needs into consideration. I'll add to that my trust that Shidduchim are in Hashem's hands and He will help me and guide me and my girls to the right choice for them.

Ad Heinah Azaruni Rachamecha V'lo Azavuni Chassadecha, Ki MeOlam Heima. The same Hashem that has been with me until now will not leave me, because He is truly there for us forever.

notshanarishona

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 2:21 pm

First of all that is not always true. Several of my brothers got into kollels outside of Lakewood/NY pretty easily. There is a whole Midwest, Chicago/ Cleveland / South Bend/ Detroit/ etc. etc. .Not every kollel is a kiruv kollel that wants an older person.
For all of my sisters and we are many, the asked amount was about $1000 for several years.
Maybe everyone should just marry Baaley Teshuva, lol, but I know several friends as well as 2 sisters who married someone not FFB not coming from a big family and the boy's family's split kollel support.
Also, in Israel , it is very standard to split expenses.

watergirl

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 2:22 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Your post touched me - the last line esp. I literally have tears in my eyes. We all need to remember what you said.

Its true, and people forget, that its all in HIS hands. Its hard to remember when you are the young girl who wants to get married, and when you are terrified that you wont due to lack of support.

I wonder - these "top" boys - how top are they if they are making demands? Sounds like gaivah to me. And what kinds of in laws are you assigning to your girls, if you go with the ones making demands?

I dont know. But I respect you tremendously. Fox, you too.