Making a wedding and supporting a young couple

Fox

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 11:49 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Well you got that post all wrong Fox. Now remove your emotions and read it from your adult. I hate no one. I see a damaging system that leads to dependency.

So let me get this straight: a bunch of women are discussing a problem in their community, and you come along and say, "Wow, you have a terrible problem in your community."

How does this add to the discussion? Coming along and saying, "Well, if you were like me and had my values, you wouldn't have this problem" is not really discussion. It's being the equivalent of a mother-in-law to an entire community or culture.

Um, right. If we were exactly like you, we wouldn't have our problems. We'd have your problems.

MagentaYenta wrote:

As to Mr. Silver, I'm pretty vocal when it comes to frum crooks, whether it be SS or frum slumlords or rabbis who cover up molestations or arsonists who serve minimal time or rabbis who embezzle money.

That's interesting, because I must have missed your many posts about Mr. Silver's tremendous chilul Hashem. Note: I usually charge for sarcasm, but I'll offer it for free in this case.

MagentaYenta wrote:

My concern is generational dependency and a system that barters for brides and is unsustainable. When whole towns full of frum have the highest poverty rates in the country, it's a subject that is worthy of discussion among all frum, just not the members of that group.

Well, thank you so much for your concern and input! We'd have never guessed without your feedback that there are any problems whatsoever.

I have no doubt that your concerns are legitimate and well-intentioned. I have no doubt that you are right about many things. But repeatedly pointing out things you don't like or agree with about another group is not being helpful, it's just being (or looking like) a tax-and-spend lefty bigot.

Here's an idea for everyone: if you want to participate in conversations about groups that you don't belong to, aim for at least a 50-50 balance. For every post condemning some practice of Group X, point out something that the group does well. This may lead to being labeled an apologist from time to time, but that's much better than the alternative.

saw50st wrote:

disagree with moving this to the yeshivish forum because OP can benefit from the experience of non yeshivish families who have kids who have shifted to the right. 'm the sister of someone who shifted to the right (although my BIL didn't learn in Kollel) and 'm sure there are MO/JPF posters who have dealt with this issue. think it's even harder than being 100% supportive of the kollel lifestyle as the yeshivish forum will likely be.

This thread alone has provided ample evidence that those of us who identify as Yeshivish don't blindly support extended kollel learning, nor are we blind to deficiencies in the "system."

Trust me. We know the problems. We also understand the underlying values and the ultimate goals.

DrMom

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:13 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

I am assuming they will at least be on food stamps. I think it's possible to rent a basement apartment for around $1,000 a month. If we get to the point of making a wedding, we would prefer Boro park over Williamsburg if possible, so we'll check out Torah Viyirah. And I hope to be mostly off the hook by the time babies would come, as I hope my daughter would be working by then.
Does anyone else think it's insane that we're being pressured this way? I have a number of other children who also have needs. I'm thinking of kicking my son out of Bais medrash to save on the $7,000 a year tuition. That still leaves us with a yearly $35,000 tuition bill.

Maybe you should keep him there. Then he'll be a "top boy" whom you can use to squeeze $2000/month out of some other poor family.

This system is obviously broken.

Fox

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:16 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

OP is not supportive of this lifestyle though. I do think MO/JPF parents who have been put in this situation would be optimal support (that's not me, my oldest is 7!)

Here's the thing: Yeshivish "lifestyle" is not just about learning in kollel. Yes, that's one aspect of it, but it's not universal, and it's not the only element. There are plenty of people who identify as Yeshivish who didn't learn in kollel or learned for a very limited amount of time.

Not wanting or being able to afford extended kollel support doesn't make you unsupportive of the Yeshivish derech. It means that you have a specific problem with a specific practice, and you have to find a way to reconcile your personal convictions or situation with the practices of your group.

I don't sense that the OP has a problem with the underlying value: the primacy of learning. Rather, she's trying to navigate a particular element of lunacy that's developed as an unintended consequence.

thunderstorm

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:30 pm

As someone who went through the Bais Yaakov system and was preached to about kollel life....I wanted a husband who learned Torah of course, but I was realistic. I knew that my parents would never ever be able to support me with this life. So either I would have to be "histapkus bimiut" completely or I would have to marry a working boy. I was eighteen when I got engaged. I realized that being honest with myself was the most important thing to do. I knew that I am not on the madreigah of living only for Torah...(meaning torah comes before anything...such as no help with the finances, no or very little help with the kids and even spending less time with my DH)...so I accepted to marry a boy who agreed that he'll learn in kollel until we had kids and then he'd go out to work. I had gotten a secretarial job the week I got engaged (no degree) and had enough funds saved up after 4 months to start us off. We lived in a tiny furnished apartment for 1 year and then my DH went out to work , because I had my first child less than a year later. I never took a dime from my parents and we made it work for as long as possible. We are married more than 15 years and my DH learns EVERY SINGLE DAY and works full time...I chose NOT to live in Lakewood because of the "lifestyle" and the "mold" it forces you to be in....a girl who understands her parents finances should have the middos in her not to force them to go into debt because her DH needs to learn in kollel...it is WRONG and very not Torahdig....

Fox

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 12:46 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Fox you seem to think that just because I oppose the crooked frum politicians et al as mentioned in my post I should be starting threads about this. It's time for you to lower your expectations. This is a discussion forum, I pick and choose, just like you do, the convos I wish to engage in.

I will say this much about my opinions. I've never had to resort to name calling to prove my point. Disagreeing with a social/religious system doesn't make one a bigot.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programing.

Honest disagreement is fine. There are plenty of good reasons to reject Derech X, Y, or Z -- the most important being that, well, it's not your derech. But jumping in to assert your rights as a taxpayer or worry about potential chilul Hashem is only believable if you're consistent about applying those standards to everyone and participating with equal vigor in discussions across the board.

If that's genuinely true, then please forgive me. Though I would still have thought that anyone concerned about chilul Hashem would have found the Sheldon Silver fiasco to be worthy of comment.

I'm making no assumptions about your true feelings nor am I calling you a bigot. I can only tell you what it looks like.

Sadie

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:01 pm

Fox wrote:

MagentaYenta didn't start this thread, she's just offering her opinion on an issue that someone else brought up. It seems odd to single her out when lots of other posters have expressed similar opinions. In fact, as amother lemon points out, you two might not even disagree so much yourselves.

If there were also an ongoing discussion happening about corrupt politicians I would, from what I know of Magenta, very much expect her to comment.

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 1:38 pm

Watergirl, your assessment is correct. Just as a follow up here, I spoke to my daughter. It seems the $2,000 number did not come from the boy's parents. He asked around and found that to be an average number that people need to live. My daughter assures me he's being practical, not money grubbing. And based on what we know about him, he doesn't seem to be the entitled type at all. We discussed the possibility of them moving into our basement temporarily (not a great idea). My daughter talked about tutoring while she finishes her Masters and practicum. I said if they need extra help temporarily we could provide it, as long as it wouldn't be long term. So, thank you all for your ideas, you've all been a great help!

amother

Smokey

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 2:49 pm

Does your daughter have any savings? When I got married 10 years ago, if people asked for support, the standard amount was $1,000 a month. I had $24,000 in savings and told my parents jokingly that they can say they will give $1,000 a month for 2 years - from my savings.
I also worked in the mornings, tutored in the afternoons and was in college at night.

In the end, DH's family didn't ask for any support. We discussed it on our dates and figured out how we could manage on our own, with my work, our savings and his kollel paycheck. DH also took a tutoring job at night a month after we got married. He is still learning 2 sedarim in kollel after 10 years of marriage and he tutors and has an online evening job.

Sarale Licht1

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 3:25 pm

All I can say here is that my daughter asked a few of her married friends, seemingly not from the most wealthy families, and this request appears to be typical. Of course a girl can and should work, and a learning boy should do something to pitch in financially. My daughter has to do her practicum, which means working every day for no pay and going to school at night. I'd hate to see her postpone this to work once she gets married, because that would push off her potential to have greater earning power. She should finish her Masters plus practicum in the summer.
And- if I had it my way, learning full time after marriage wouldn't be a thing. Men and women would start their undergraduate education prior to marriage, and if they get married young, both would be working on their Masters subsequent to marriage. And one or both would have to work part or full time while pursuing their Masters degree.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:02 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

I have a bit more money than I need to live on in my retirement, that doesn't mean that my children get to determine what I do with that money. (Not that they are involved in my personal finances.)

So what happens when your FIL is gone (and his money too)? Where will you get the money to support your grandchildren in marriage (assuming this system lasts through another generation)?

I didn't want to participate in this conversation but I must, must, must second that we not raid our parents' funds. YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW ESSENTIAL THEIR RESERVES ARE. Yes, essential. Even if now saving for retirement seems to be something not at all within the realm of possible in any lifetime, this or future. YOUR PARENTS NEED IT. You don't know how messy elder care can get. Just don't go there.

And if they're not using the money wisely, DO NOT THINK ABOUT YOURSELF OR ANY POSSIBLE YERUSHA. ASSUME IT'S NON-EXISTENT. Just care about them and their future and intervene if necessary and with top-notch legal and rabbinic hadracha.

I'm not even going to talk about how degrading and not-Torahdik this way of thinking is. (Please note, SL, I'm not calling you or anyone who thinks this way degrading and not-Torahdik. You're victims and desperate. Big hugs.)

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:07 pm

Sarale Licht1 wrote:

To clarify, this boy is not learning in Lakewood nor does he intend to. He is learning in Brooklyn and intends to learn for 5 years at the outside most. He seems to have a specific marketable skill that he can use without attending college when the need arises. To the commenter who said we should stretch ourselves a bit, but not go into debt, I think that is sound advice and I think with that in mind we can do the $1,500 a month for one year.

Like Fox said, 5 years used to, and still should mean, being on the trajectory to live as a real ben Torah for life, likely, but not necessarily in klei kodesh. Now when people say 5 years, sometimes they're just dabbling because it's pasnisht to say one wants to do less.

sourstix

Wed, Dec 30 2015, 4:11 pm

tell her to move to lakewood the rent is so much cheaper. oh but she will possibly need 2 cars, but the rent is much cheapoer then in brooklyn. she can get a good job here too. dont know what she is doing tho. but the housing is definitely cheaper. I have a tentant one is paying 875$ for 2 bedroom and one is paying 800$ for 2 bedroom. look in masa umatan and look at the prices there. make some calls.
just throwing out the option. my neice just got married and shes a brooklyn girl. and she moved to lakewood recently. also it depends where you rent. its the renters market now. so you can find cheap and bargain bec there are alot of options. good luck.