Thinking of leaving. My DS is gay.

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:10 am

amother wrote:

It's not that we treat gays bad. But how can we condone behavior that's outright against our beliefs? We are supposed hang out rainbow flags and join the rest of the world, change our basic laws and belief system to accommodate them. Is that a fair or realistic expectation?

I don't think orthodox treat gays bad.We have nothing against the person, only their behavior.

Around my MO shul and in the less-modern communities where I often visit, I frequently hear snarky comments about gays. Very likely, the jokesters don't think they are being mean to gay people, but they are without a doubt creating a hostile environment where a gay person would not feel comfortable going to shul. Regardless of orientation and the struggles it may present, any Jew should feel welcomed to daven and hear the Torah, and yes, be a part of the community. Unfortunately, this is not so simple, and the OP is wisely looking into the options, which I hope will include a warm and welcoming Jewish community.

amother

Seagreen

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:24 am

mille wrote:

I'm so sorry you are going through this. I highly encourage you reach out to Eshel: http://www.eshelonline.org/ If anything, it will be so so nice to have the support, I am sure. For you and your son!

It sounds like you need a community with more compassionate leadership and congregants. Probably a community lead by one of the rabbis who signed this: http://statementofprinciplesnya.blogspot.com/

It's disgusting how much of the orthodox community treats gay/lesbian Jews. I sincerely hope it gets better over time, but I am not entirely optimistic. Sad

Hugs.

It's disgusting that people who are writing on Frum (Torah Observant) Blog, about something that is anti-torah. Our Torah has an issur about Gays and Lesbian people. If someone is not following the Torah the very most it should be in private, and we don't need to know about their aveiros. I hope Im not insulting anyone, I just feel very strongly that no one even wrote this yet....

amother

Gray

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:45 am

amother wrote:

I agree.
Yes it dosen't feel nice. we don't do what is nice and easy in this life. we do what is right.
Yes this boy will be sad. This is the challenge of his life to overcome.
Our morals are not based on the current culture but it is torah based.

amother

Wheat

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:48 am

My own father is gay and he actually davens in a shul that has many like him...(though I had no idea he was gay when I was growing up)...it is very awkward in the frum community, but the less you make a big deal of it the more comfortable it feels....why do kids even know about it? They are the ones that will call him names etc....it's not nice. But you should not move, no matter where you live people will ostracize you...it is the same for many parents with children OTD...people cant understand how they allow those children to live with their parents...I have some OTD siblings...and I had neighbors of mine that had a problem with the fact that I invited them to MY home...it's none of their close minded business!!! When will people learn that not everyone is perfect like them?

youngishbear

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:49 am

amother wrote:

Our Torah does not assur people. It assurs certain activities. Just because someone says they're gay does not mean they are actually committing the sins associated with that lifestyle. Even if they are, it does not make them worthless in the eyes of Hashem and mistreating them is an aveirah just like mistreating anyone else.

I agree with you though that in a religious community making declarations about such things does invite prejudice. I guess the most you can hope for at this point is a sort of "don't ask don't tell" attitude.

But bullying is never okay.

Ema of 5

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 9:53 am

amother wrote:

No it doesn't. At least not my Torah. My Torah has a prohibition of men being together. That's it. Accepting a person doesn't mean condoning every life-choice they make. It means loving them, and accepting them, unconditionally, regardless of choices that you don't accept. The Torah has no issur against the people, only a specific act.

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

I reported your post. It's inaccurate, insulting, rude and insensitive to the OP. And the fact that you posted anonymously shows that you knew that it was all those things. Shame on you.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:06 am

amother wrote:

...and I had neighbors of mine that had a problem with the fact that I invited them to MY home...it's none of their close minded business!!! When will people learn that not everyone is perfect like them?

These days, thanks to the successes of "Twisted Parenting- Avi Fishoff" the biggest Rebbes (Satmar/Belz, Bobov, the list is endless) and Gdolim agree that the only way to treat OTD children is to love them and do MORE for them, both publicly and privately, (yes Chassidim happily walk around 13th avenue with their daughters with purple hair) than your other children, and be proud of it. This makes the OTD kids feel good. Whoever thinks otherwise have their heads buried in the sand.

WhatFor

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:15 am

amother wrote:

And why did you have to post this anonymously? You believe so strongly in this that you are willing to risk causing pain to other women on this board, but you don't believe in this enough to associate it with your screen name?

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

I think I might want to leave our MO community sometime soon. My DS is gay and although nobody knows except a very limited few including our rabbi, I can't stand the stray comments that I hear all too often coming from mouths of especially the young people. Their parents never taught them about what gay is other than to be hateful about it and not to correct them when they use the term "faggot". And even though I correct all my children, I don't want my children to grow up in an shul and hear these things and feel marginalized or feel bad because they have a brother that is gay. They love their brother and it would hurt them to hear or see such hatefulness.

I realize there are plenty of homophobes all over, not just in MO shuls, so leaving the shul isn't going to "fix" anything.

There are just too many people using the name of G-d to be hateful. Not just in our shul, but organized religion in general.

It makes one think very long and hard!

Last year my MO shul undertook a long search for a new rabbi. Congregants were encouraged to submit questions that were then posed to the candidates during their job search interviews and Q and A sessions. One question, posed by a congregant who had a gay son, was how that rabbi would treat a gay member of the congregation. Would he be allowed to have an aliyah? Be a shaliach tzibur?

I don't think it was coincidental that the candidate who was chosen for the position answered that a gay person could have an aliyah, and could be a shaliach tzibur. Another candidate who gave a "love the sinner / hate the sin / have to look into this further" answer was well, not quite booed, but close enough.

The fact that this question was asked in a MO shut and that MO congregants cared enough about the rights of gay people to take that answer into consideration when voting for the rabbi shows that not all MO shuls are anti-gay. I do think the MO community as a whole tends to be conservative, but there are many who are accepting.

My community is in Kemp Mill, Silver Spring, MD. I realize you can't move someplace just for the shul, but in case you all get a chance to relocate to DC, it's something to consider.

Best of luck.

GAP

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

It's not our job to be busy judging and counting other people's sins. We don't know what anyone is going through and just because he's gay doesn't mean he sleeps with men. And even if he does, it's not your struggle, it's none of your business. Everybody here struggles with something and everybody has a test. Leave the judgement and aveira counting up to the one above. G-d created this individual and he deserves respect. It's never ok to be mean and to bully other people and it's against Torah as well.

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:18 am

amother wrote:

no shame on you! so all high and mighty on a frum website.
You know why she is anon and rightly so because on this frum blog she does not want to be bullied by people like you for having religious jewish views.

First of all, this is not a blog, it's a forum. (what is with people calling imamother a blog and the women on it bloggers? Confused

)
Secondly, there are plenty of self righteous bullies like you and her around here too, but you don't see me going anonymous. Because I stand by my views and am not afraid to express them. I couldn't care less if some random ignorant woman on the Internet doesn't agree with me. So that's the difference between me and you. I suggest that in the future, if you want to taken more seriously, you try to summon up the courage to own your views and not be afraid to express them under your own screen name.

amother

Seashell

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:23 am

Homosexuality - view of Rav Moshe Feinstein

Igros Moshe(O.H. 4:115): The first thing you need to know is that homosexuality has the severe punishment of stoning and kares and it is also called disgusting by the Torah itself. It is one of the most debased sins and it even is prohibited for non‑Jews. This knowledge is a strong bulwark against the yetzer harah. Secondly it is inexplicable that there should be a lust for it. That is because in the creation of man himself there is no natural lust for homosexuality… The desire for homosexual relations is against natural lust and even the wicked do not have a desire for it itself. Rather their entire desire for it is only because it is something prohibited and the yetzer harah seduces them to rebel against the will of G‑d. This knowledge of what is the will of G‑d is a powerful protection against the yetzer harah. You have already defeated the yetzer harah in that you believe in G‑d and all the 13 principles of faith and the entire Torah. With this you can defeat the yetzer harah in this that it seduces you to rebel against G‑d and to anger Him. There is an explicit verse in HaAzinu “That with abominations they provoke Him to anger” [Devarim 32:16] Rashi says an example is homosexuality which is a sin which causes G‑d’s anger. He also says this regarding magic which interferes with the Heavenly family as is stated in Sanhedrin (67b). Thus the explanation of this verse is that it causes you to deny the decrees of Heaven and to act to anger G‑d – chas veshalom! The third thing is that homosexuality is an embarrassment even to the common man. Because the entire world – even the wicked - ridicule those who are homosexuals. Even in the eyes of the wicked who participate in these acts, he looks down on the one who did it with him and ridicules and insults him. This awareness will greatly strengthen you against the yezter harah. …Awareness of how debasing a sin is, is a good advice to strengthen oneself against the desire to do a sin which is disgusting and ridiculed such as this one. Because not only is it against the Torah which prohibits it with the most severe punishment, but it is also the greatest embarrassment to his whole family. The greatest advice to overcome this is to learn Torah in depth. This will save and guard you from all sins – even from the thoughts of sins as the Rambam states at the end of Hilchos Issurei Bi’ah: “Greater than all this, turn oneself and ones thoughts to words of Torah and expand one’s mind in wisdom.” So surely this will save you from the yetzer harah of this despised sin.

http://daattorah.blogspot.com/......html

fmt4

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:27 am

amother wrote:

Uh, surely this will not save you from anything, and will just make you feel horrible about yourself and probably lead to a miserable life and or suicide. Rolling Eyes

amother

Wheat

Wed, Jan 20 2016, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

My gay father suffers from severe depression and feels very alone in the world....so yes, Reb. Moshe knew very well what these people would feel like...but our communities should at least not be against parents who show love to their children who are gay..it is not their fault that their child chose this lifestyle and the parents themselves should be viewed the same as anyone else...the same goes for children of a gay parent etc.