Rechnitz speech brought something ignored to the surface

amother

Emerald

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 10:57 am

amother wrote:

From my DH's point of view. he cannot do everything.
He was outside for over 8 hours on Sunday digging people out - 2 young widows with little children, he dug out their walkways and car. Then 2 elderly people he dug them walkways. at that point he was too exhausted to do their cars. He felt horrible. One of them eventually hired someone - it took them 4 hours. My DH just couldn't do it.
Another neighbor with husband who is unwell asked if my husband can come help. DH said yes and went, but I think at that point it was dangerous for him to still be digging. He isn't the most fit person. I wasn't sure at what point he should start saying no because these people couldn't do it alone.

My boys definitely helped people as much as they could. They helped an older neighbor dig out his car, and every time another elderly neighbor tried to go out I pushed my boys to go out with him, just so he shouldn't work so hard or be alone in the snow, even though they are too little to lift the heavy snow. My boys were also up at 6:00 am and when they saw him walking in the snow to shul got dressed and held his hand and walked him there.

I think you can definitely instill middos in your kids even if schools aren't doing it. For example I take my boys every shabbos to visit someone home bound. Every one has benefited from it, but especially my kids.

At work my DH pushed numerous non-jewish people when they got stuck, and it wasn't because they were in his way, just because it is the correct thing to do.

I think there are a lot of fine people out there with excellent middos, not just my DH and to paint them all with a broad brush is wrong.

At the end of the day most posters here are saying I have great middos but others don't (maybe specifically from a specific town). But at the end of the day I think most people have excellent middos, and there are a few individuals who do not.

Very true its exausting work and not a mitzvah to harm yourself for someone else

amother

Cobalt

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:01 am

Heyaaa wrote:

Lol if you think that's what their priorities are. No Rosh yeshiva would let their kid go out with your kid any sooner than they would eat a juicy hamburger. You see it's not kavod Torah!! Unless their kid has problems. But if your kid gets engaged to their kid, everyone will know that the kid with yichus has problems because why else would their parents consider such a boring family like yours.

Before you spit your venom do you know anything about the Lakewood rosh yeshivas or poskim? Their backgrounds, who their kids marry?
Do you know that at least 2 grew up MO going to co-ed schools, one married a kotler? Some are children of Baalei Teshuva. Their grandchildren and children have married OOT people from non yeshivish families or children of Baalei teshuva. I know them personally and know of a few cases were this happened.

BMG Rosh Yeshiva and Poskim shidduchim are not like rebbish shidduchim. (In fact many people don't want to marry the child in this sitatution because of the pressure).

Twizzlers

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 11:25 am

100% the schools should be teaching middos. Of course we do at home, but there is no reason why with all the torah they are cramming in, they cant add in a few minutes a day for middos.
Its so bad, that at my 6 year olds chumash seuda, the principal stood up and announced that he is proud to say that "we dont teach middos here, because we dont need to. Our talmidim learn by example from our excellent rebbeim". This is a very well known and established yeshiva, and I was horrified to hear that. Not too surprised though that bullying is tolerated there, with an attitude like that. And its no wonder that these boys eventually grow up, become principals and roshei yeshiva and act this way, when they are taught to emulate their rebbeim, who are lacking in middos. Its a vicious cycle bec no one in a high up position like that would admit they are lacking.

I dont understand why the girls schools manage to teach it, and the boys cannot. My 5 year old daughter came home all excited that she got a lollypop for being mevater to a classmate. She then proceeded to demonstrate how good at being mevater she was at home with her siblings. Tell me why such a lesson would be so complicated to teach to the boys as well.

amother

Emerald

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:12 pm

Twizzlers wrote:

I woulnt be suprised if I can guess which boy school this is. If I am correct than this is such a sought after school that you cant even get an interview . And this is what we are running after to provide chinuch for our precious children. They get away with it because they can

princessleah

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 12:59 pm

I don't understand the dichotomy being presented here. Torah/Middot. In my view, Torah = Middot. It is an instruction book given to us to teach us how to live our lives. The way people are describing it here, it's being treated like in academia-- all pilpul and analysis, no living.

And no, middos should not be "taught" in school, but I don't believe they should be taught at all. They should be lived. There should be a culture in the school of good middot. Bein HaZemanim all these boys should be told and expected to go home and ready the house for pesach. Kids should not get in trouble for making a minyan at a funeral (that appeared in a thread a few months ago). At my son's school, every kid has a job for the week. When they're little, it's things like line leader, light shutter, handing the towel for netilat yadayim, etc. But it imbues everyone with a sense of responsibility towards their community. And schools 100% have a responsibility to imbue those middos, if they claim they are teaching Torah. They are one and the same!

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:14 pm

amother wrote:

I think his speech was very well said and was needed to be said. About stressing midos in the boys schools I agree that its totaly lacking. My daughters come home with beautiful hashkafos from school but in my boys school the main stress is how much ground was covered in chumash/mishnyos/gemorah.... How much was memorised...nothing on hashkafa ....nothing on midos... nothing on
Hash ems love for yidden....

Wow. I just found a parsha handout from ds's elementary rebbe a good 15 years ago and the first page was about middos and middos from the parsha.
Of course it starts at home, and the middle and end is home-based too, but it reminded me that our school b"H was very much partners in our children's chinuch.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:17 pm

Heyaaa wrote:

You send your kids to school to have an education. Ie learn math, science and Chumash. School is not a replacement for child rearing. It is on the PARENTS, not the school, to teach the kids about middos.

Besides, morals/middos are a sign of maturity. A person can be 6 years old and be mature in this aspect and a person can be 60 and be immature.

Why should the leaders be expected to teach about not having gaiva? I think most, if not all, are guilty of the same.

Even secular schools teach morals, whether talking about kindness, bullying, social responsibility, etc.
We shouldn't teach morals? And teach it as Torah-based, not purely* sechel-based?

* asterisk after the purely because there is the fifth Shulchan Aruch.

PinkFridge

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:22 pm

wrote:

Yikes!
Though it does remind me of the original mussar opposition - who needs dedicated mussar study time as you can get it all from limud Torah.
But this is wrong, because let's say that the rebbeim are exceptional people (and I have no reason to believe otherwise). They need to see exemplary middos in their peers and the interpersonal relationships of the rebbeim, however much they see, won't cut it.

ETA: Amother cobalt, I will bli neder have your school owner in mind when I say "vchol me sheoskim btzarchei tzibbur beemuna"!

gold21

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:24 pm

Middos are taught in the home. Not in school. It your responsibility to teach your child good middos.

I dont know why Rechnitz's speech is so shocking to so many Lakewooders. Is Lakewood above mussar? No community is above mussar. Rabbis and laypeople knock the actions of different communities all the time. Lakewood should not feel it is above mussar. None of us are.

gold21

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:31 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

My boys school has a middos program. They emphasize middos a lot. Still, I see that at the end of the day, they pick up on my actions and words a lot more than on the middos program. If I (and my husband) model good middos- kindness, empathy, openmindedness, flexibility, etc- I think the odds are better that my kids will hopefully pick that up. I hope. IYH.

My elementary school had a middos program, but I attribute a lot of my nature (my strengths and weaknesses) to my upbringing, and very little of it to the middos program.

Twizzlers

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:50 pm

Firstly, of course middos need to be taught mainly at home. No question about that.

The thing is, every person, until the day they die needs to work on improving some midda or another. So your kids rebbi is not perfect, and cannot demonstrate perfect middos. And yet, the principal (in our case) is saying that anything they need to know about middos is demonstrated by the rebbeim.
So for example, if my kids rebbi makes a comment to my kid "your haircut that you got is messy, tell your mother to fix it up", my kid and the entire class who overheard, now thinks that its ok to say something like that to a peer?
Now yes, that actually happened, and at the same time, this Rebbi is so amazing in many other ways. So I did explain to my son AT HOME that that is not a nice way to talk, and if you have nothing nice to say, keep quiet etc. But do you not think that if the school had stressed a similar midda (not making someone feel bad, for example) in school, the message would come across way stronger? Because what exactly did I teach him with this explanation? That rebbi is not perfect, and made a mistake embarrassing him like that.

By the same token, I am not perfect either. And if a midda I struggle with is taught or stressed in school, my kids have a better chance overall of seeing what to aspire to.

sky

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 1:50 pm

I also think middos today are sometimes repackaged as "social skills".

Like my boys have a teacher in Primary who comes in and teaches them what to do if a boy isn't included, what to do if you aren't included, What to do if you get angry, someone won't share, etc.

In 2nd grade the rebbe encouraged the boys on Thursday to ask if they could help get ready for shabbos and wanted a note back if they asked and what they did to help.

In 4th grade my son is using a workbook called shalom Secrets that goes through talking nicely, how body language can change the meaning of your words, resolving conflict without fighting, what to do when you are angry, etc. They also had a contest were the boys worked on talking nicely to each other, especially during sports, and if they went a week without yelling or fighting at all (the class as a whole - when forming the teams, playing the game, resolving conflict, figuring out if a play is valid or not) and working out disagreements correctly during recess they got a treat. They had someone who specializes in sports come in and work with them a bit making sure they had the tools to figure it out on their own.

pointyshoes

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 2:04 pm

amother wrote:

Torah is good. More a problem of our weak leadership. Our leaders dont say what has to be said, possibly because they assume its common sense, or for fear of alienating Askonim and Gvirim, or it doesnt help them any or who knows...

Or because people dont listen to them. I have two towns in mind where people just dont listen to the rabanim and theyre obviously fed up of talking to brick walls

gold21

Wed, Jan 27 2016, 2:05 pm

Twizzlers wrote:

Omg

Twizzlers is here! Party

Anyway, yeah, good points.