Another tuition vent....

amother

Cyan

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 6:33 pm

[quote="imorethanamother"]Disagree. And I think this adage brings home the joke that "Jews only agree on one thing - how the other Jew should spend his money."

Cleaning help a few times a month? Eating out? I pay full tuition for my five kids and let me tell you - those two things don't add up to the thousands and thousands of dollars needed.

What I am in favor of is telling a Rebbe that he is allowed free (or reduced) tuition for his kids - but the max is 3. After that he has to pay full tuition.[/quote]

I have to disagree with the bolded. A rebbi is paid such a low salary, that your suggestion would be unfair. It is just part of the job compensation in my opinion that tuition is covered in some schools. By the way, my husband is a rebbi, but our kids are not in the school where he is a rebbi. The salary he gets is about $54,000 , he works more than full time and he is not just a rebbi ,but head of Kodesh. Rebbeim's salaries are pitifully low. If you want your sons to have decent rebbeim then you can not begrudge them free tuition if they are eligible for it. (I just wish we were eligible for it, yes of course we get scholarship, but we are breaking at all ends, trying to make ends meet in order to pay tuition.) Just saying.

amother

Gray

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 9:18 pm

amother wrote:

No different than when I'm standing in the grocery with my coupons having looked at my list a few times and price checked everything to make sure that I'm using my money as wisely as possible, and I see the person in front of me load up on expensive stuff and then pay with food stamps. The gap between the haves and the have-nots seems to be a bit skewed when a family can live off of tzedaka and the government quite a bit nicer than a family living through their own sweat and toil...

I receive food stamps, and my family is on medicaid. I have jewelry, and dress well, if I may say so myself. My life used to be one that included many luxuries. Tuition was paid in full, with donations for every dinner, tzedakah drive, and occasion. I felt quite good about our generosity and how we took responsibility...well, times have certainly changed. The clothes & jewels, they're left over from better days. I have $244 in my only bank account. I dodge calls from the schools, embarrassed and afraid of answering them. Please stop with the cheshbonos about how it really pays to be poor, how food stamp users are all cheating the system, and how everything we do is open to your disapproval since we are using YOUR tax payer money. I pay/paid taxes, too. I work, on the books. I am at the mercy of other peoples generosity, or not. I am poor. It stinks.
Hijack over. Sorry, op.

amother

Plum

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 9:18 pm

amother wrote:

As a former administrator of a yeshiva, I can verify that there are many costs involved you wouldn't think of. There's insurance for on site injuries, workers compensation and disability. There's office supplies, textbooks, prizes for competitions, trips ($3 to help cover the cost is nothing. It can cost over $25 per student). Salaries of secretary, security, administrators, principals, assistant principals, teachers, janitorial staff, kitchen staff...even a govt liaison to make sure all paperwork is in order. That's just what I can recall at the moment.

I never realized how much it costs till I worked in administration myself.

The other side of the coin is there is funding available.

imorethanamother

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 11:11 pm

[quote="amother"]

imorethanamother wrote:

Disagree. And I think this adage brings home the joke that "Jews only agree on one thing - how the other Jew should spend his money."

Cleaning help a few times a month? Eating out? I pay full tuition for my five kids and let me tell you - those two things don't add up to the thousands and thousands of dollars needed.

What I am in favor of is telling a Rebbe that he is allowed free (or reduced) tuition for his kids - but the max is 3. After that he has to pay full tuition.[/quote]

I have to disagree with the bolded. A rebbi is paid such a low salary, that your suggestion would be unfair. It is just part of the job compensation in my opinion that tuition is covered in some schools. By the way, my husband is a rebbi, but our kids are not in the school where he is a rebbi. The salary he gets is about $54,000 , he works more than full time and he is not just a rebbi ,but head of Kodesh. Rebbeim's salaries are pitifully low. If you want your sons to have decent rebbeim then you can not begrudge them free tuition if they are eligible for it. (I just wish we were eligible for it, yes of course we get scholarship, but we are breaking at all ends, trying to make ends meet in order to pay tuition.) Just saying.

If your husband makes $54,000, then let's do the math. Say at any given time, he has four kids in a school. $13,000 x 4 (no taxes taken away) is an extra $52,000. And since no Rebbe I know stops at four, the tuition is only higher. If I have to take birth control because I can't afford it, why shouldn't that be their burden, too? Putting a cap on free tuitions for your 8-10 kids makes them do some arithmetic.

amother

Cyan

Mon, Mar 21 2016, 11:22 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

First of all, what makes you think I have 8-10 kids?!
Secondly, I do not believe that anybody should use BC because they can not afford full tuition. Any Rav with whom my husband and I have discussed this has bemoaned the situation where people think that htey should use BC bec they cant afford tuition. Nebach. I do not believe that this is what Hashem wants of us.
Btw, on our current income , 54,000 dh, approx 22,000 myself, with all the normal costs of a family, eg mortgage, food, insurances etc , we actually cant afford to pay more than 1.5 -2 tuitions in full. Are you by any chance suggesting that becasue my husband gives his life and soul to be mechanech the children of the community that we should have a maximum of 2 or 3 children?! Because if you are suggesting that, then that is just ridiculous. You need to stop being jealous of the rebbeim whom you mentioned in your earlier post who shouldnt chas veshalom in your opinion get more than 3 free tuitions. Live and let live. Deal with your own finances and keep out of other peoples.
I know that I am being a little rude here, I jsut get so mad at some people's insistence on how bad it is that some rebbeim (my family excluded unfortunately) get free tuition. Being in chinuch is hard hard work, it is also very rewarding and exciting. It is my husband's life mission but the salary is not at all commensurate with the amount of hours, experience and qualifications. My husband for example has been in chinuch for about 20 years BH, he has a masters in education and a masters in special ed. It is a very poorly paid profession, we have major major financial worries all the time. don't bother being jealous please.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 12:04 am

amother wrote:

Not always is everything as it appears. How about the family where the father lost his job. Should they give up their new car lease? Bus transportation for two schools and public transport for the mothers commute to work was more expensive.

Pesach is quite expensive. Grandparents used mileage for tickets for them to come for pesach. Should they not accept the offer because of their finances?

However, those that truly "cheat" the system should pay more.

And I didn't mention going to grandparents for pesach or fancy cars. Obviously if someone bought a car and 2 years later lost his job I wouldn't say sell it. (Whether he should have without having put away enough money for a rainy day is another issue. But once it happened, I don't say sell the car). But I mentioned fancier foods, sleep away camp, matching in season clothes and expensive trips. All not "needs" and things that come after paying full tuition.

amother

Burlywood

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 12:17 am

amother wrote:

From what I read on imamother (and hear in real life) chinuch people get way more benefits than just free or reduced tuition.
Few points....
A. PP said max 3 free. So that is 13,000x3 or an extra 39,000 tax free (plus no dinner fees, building fund etc). Plus the 1.5-2 kids you can afford to pay for. So 5 kids isn't 2 kids you claim.
B. Chinuch families I know get discounts at
Sefarim stores, groceries, shul dues, day camp, sleep away camp, tuition at other schools... Expenses us people have to cover. One family told me a donor gives chinuch families free stuff pesach time- she got cases of stuff for free, just filled out a form with what she wanted!
C. You say no one should use BC because of tuition. Well, who will pay in the end? Only parents of first kids. And it will be at least 50,000 to cover the fact that everyone else is on reduced tuition....

amother

Oak

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 1:33 am

amother wrote:

Are you by any chance suggesting that becasue my husband gives his life and soul to be mechanech the children of the community that we should have a maximum of 2 or 3 children?! Because if you are suggesting that, then that is just ridiculous. You need to stop being jealous of the rebbeim whom you mentioned in your earlier post who shouldnt chas veshalom in your opinion get more than 3 free tuitions. Live and let live. Deal with your own finances and keep out of other peoples.
I know that I am being a little rude here, I jsut get so mad at some people's insistence on how bad it is that some rebbeim (my family excluded unfortunately) get free tuition. Being in chinuch is hard hard work, it is also very rewarding and exciting. It is my husband's life mission but the salary is not at all commensurate with the amount of hours, experience and qualifications. My husband for example has been in chinuch for about 20 years BH, he has a masters in education and a masters in special ed. It is a very poorly paid profession, we have major major financial worries all the time. don't bother being jealous please.

My dh has worked in chinuch and in the professional world, and if you think chinuch is hard work, you are kidding yourself. You have no idea how other people live. It's fine to choose idealism over money, but you have to live with the choices you make.

You are right that if we want good teachers we need to offer salaries that attract the best and the brightest. Of course, to do that, schools would need to bring in more tuition money. And who will be paying?

amother

Plum

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 5:39 am

amother wrote:

The free stuff at Pesach is maaser and not on your chesbon. The big discounts go to khollel families target than chinuch families. I work in town and I don't get any of the discounts you mention except reduced prices for food Pasach which is maaser.

The heavy community burden is caused by the khollel families who do often end up in chinuch. Why don't we limit them to a two child per family like in China?

amother

Lavender

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 7:04 am

As other posters have said, $54,000 salary is far from the entire picture. That means you are off all summer, plus every single Jewish holiday, erev yom tov, etc. Do you know what's sad? When someone making over $90,000 has her entire salary go towards full tuition for for 4 kids. (Before we argue semantics, yes, that includes deductions for healthcare, retirement, dental etc- I am referring to take home pay after taxes.) That doesn't cover all of summer camp, which is a necessity, since both parents work full time. That doesn't cover all of gap care that is needed for the week that the kids (and teachers!!) Are off before pesach. People who complain that teachers have it hard are not looking at the full picture, and have no idea the amount of money a family has to make in order to pay tuition. And guess what? If we don't pay full tuition, and we are both working, then people begrudge us cleaning help (which I don't have), minimal vacations (which are necessary for mental health when both parents are out of the house over 10 hours a day), and other, small "luxurious" that working people sometimes need to allow themselves in order to stay sane. So we don't ask for a break because we want to live our lives in peace with no one else counting our money and telling us what we can and cannot spend.

And what really, really irks me is when people make the argument that tuition is not a valid reason to go on birth control. I have never once heard that argument from people who are actually paying all of their bills. That argument generally comes from the people who have gotten used to being on the receiving end, so they will have kids they cannot afford because there are people like me and my husband, who work insane hours and have crazy schedule so that we can pay your bills.

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 7:21 am

imorethanamother wrote:

They may not add up to full tuition, but spending $100/month on cleaning help is $1200. $100/month on takeout is another $1200. That's $2400 that schools have to fund raise rather than families sacrificing. These small things add up and if 50 families did that, it's nearly $100,000 more revenue for schools. I also pay full tuition and I make sure there is money available by not having cleaning help and rarely getting takeout. Is it hard? Sure, but it's more ethical than taking charity for it.

Most of the schools in my area have some restrictions on free tuition like first 2 kids free, next 2 reduced by a % and then you pay full (or some variation of that).

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 7:51 am

amother wrote:

If your husband is not earning enough for your family, why don't you go into a more lucrative field or work more hours? $22,000 is an extremely low salary.

Also, teaching is not a hugely lucrative field, but it has a lot of side benefits (a lot of vacation days for chagim, summers off, potential for free tuition).

Raisin

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 7:55 am

saw50st8 wrote:

And if everyone stopped eating meat or chicken, going on vacation ever, drove only old cars, never bought convenience foods, no air conditioners, etc think how much they could save!

When should this penny pinching stop?

amother

Plum

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 8:27 am

saw50st8 wrote:

OP, if your teachers are licensed and the school has a good education and standards, $13k is very likely a real number. There are a lot of expenses that go into running a school.

But I hear your frustration. We send our kids to a school that fund-raises for scholarships separately from tuition.

My school also has interesting way to deal with scholarships. They match rich families with needy families, and the wealthier family pays the bills for those students. They can choose all or part of a bill. Wealthy families pay tutors also when needed.

How is it working out with raising money separately from tuition? What is full tuition at your school?

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 9:05 am

Raisin wrote:

Penny pinching should stop when you can afford to pay all your bills and choose where the extras go. If you aren't willing to take charity for it, then you shouldn't be willing to ask for a scholarship for it because that's what scholarships are, charity.

saw50st8

Tue, Mar 22 2016, 9:10 am

amother wrote:

Right now it's $9200/child for K-4 (pre-K is around $8200). To contrast, in my town, the other schools range from $14,000-$18,000. Many of the families who would be on scholarship at those schools can pay full price for my kids school. Scholarships are available for those that need.

So far the fundraising separately for scholarships is going well enough. I haven't heard any complaints.

It's a really great school so far. You can learn more here: www.yeshivatheatid.org

We went for the price, but are staying for the education. It's amazing (to me). One of my kids would not do well in an environment where he had to sit in a regular classroom and stare at a teacher all day. He thrives here because they rotate through centers varying group work, independent work and teacher instruction to keep the kids engaged. It's not for every kid, but most kids can thrive there (I have 3 there right now, all very different learners, all thriving in their own way).