How do you explain "chasdei hashem the girls where found"

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 11:39 am

I kept checking social media last night for updates on the search for the missing girls. When I woke up this morning the first thing I did was to find out if there was any good news. As of this morning, there wasn't. I am so thrilled that I saw about an hour ago that the girls were found. Judging from the singing and dancing by the rescue workers at the scene, it appears that this story will have the ending we were all hoping for.
I keep reading "chasdei hashem the girls were found". Does this make sense? Hashem controls everything and ultimately caused these girls and their families to go through this traumatic experience. How do we say "chasdei hashem" now? If someone steals my car and then returns it a few days later do I say what a good guy he is for returning my car? I expect to hear responses that it could have been worse, or this brought the klal together, but we really have know idea how hashem works or why things happen. At face value the families of these girls really suffered the last 16 hours or so. How is this chasdei hashem?

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 11:55 am

cnc wrote:

There have been a few stories recently with pretty sad endings. I think this ending definitely calls for a chasdei hashem.

Bh, there were only 16 hours of suffering and not a Levaya plus a week of shiva for example.

And in stories that end in tragedy we say that while we don't understand hashem, everything he does is good, and the tragic ending was indeed for the best even though we don't see it, and therefore it's chasdei hashem in those cases as well.

abound

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 11:57 am

You seem to think Hashem owes you one......He does not owe us anything, not the good we get and not an explanation of why he did things. There is a big world with lots of details and ways of doing things that humans do not get to see. They were meant to go through this nisayon and maybe the ending was supposed to be different. The families overcame their nisayon and through tefila we got the ending that we humans wanted, we saw the good.

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 11:58 am

tymama wrote:

It could be that there was supposed to be a terrible outcome but because everyone prayed and showed unity, decree was changed for the better.

But since EVERYTHING hashem does is good and for the best, had the story had a bad ending wouldn't it be fair to say chasdei hashem since it was a hidden good that we don't understand?

tryinghard

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:03 pm

amother wrote:

But since EVERYTHING hashem does is good and for the best, had the story had a bad ending wouldn't it be fair to say chasdei hashem since it was a hidden good that we don't understand?

Chessed does not mean good/for the best. It is a kindness above and beyond justice. A tragic outcome I this situation would have been "natural" or expected - certainly not shocking. The fact that they turned up completely fine was an act of chessed on Hashem's part - not necessarily within the natural progression, considering how many bad things could have happened.

cnc

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:04 pm

I'm not really sure what the question you're asking is.
In the OP you write that the families suffered for 16 hours, how is that chasdei hashem and in your last post, you're saying that it would be chasdei hashem even if the girls weren't found?

I agree with you, but I think the chasdei hashem is pretty open and obvious that the girls were found and the fact that the parents suffered is pretty minute compared to the possible outcomes.

cnc

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:05 pm

tryinghard wrote:

You said it better than I did.
A tragic outcome wouldn't necessarily call for a "chasdei hashem ".
When people pass away we say "Baruch dayan haemes" not chasdei hashem...

Ema of 5

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:36 pm

amother wrote:

But since EVERYTHING hashem does is good and for the best, had the story had a bad ending wouldn't it be fair to say chasdei hashem since it was a hidden good that we don't understand?

We do, we just use different terminology. We say Baruch Dayan haemes. Why are we praising HaShem when someone dies? Because ultimately, he is the Dayan haemes, the ultimate, most honest, fair judge there is.
For whatever reason these girls (and their families and friends, and the extended Jewish nation) had to suffer, but chasdei HaShem it did not end any worse.

amother

Natural

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:36 pm

cnc wrote:

I guess what I'm saying is that this was a terrible event that could have been worse. I don't understand that we say "chasdei hashem" when bad things happen on he basis that they could have been worse. Not to mention that hashem brought about this bad event. In Indonesia there was a tsunami around 12 years ago. Around a quarter million people died. Imagine the town just at the point where the waters stopped. The people in that town survived. Would it make sense for them to say....gd is so kind. He is so compassionate! He made the waters stop and spared us! Um, it was gd who brought this calamity in the first place. So in our example hashem brings tremendous suffering to the families of these girls and when they are found alive we say....hashem is so kind! Hashem is the one who brought the terror in the first place. The truth is this is a circular argument because the response will be that hashem saved us from worse, it was good for their neshama, only because we all davened were the girles saved. But of course no one really knows this.

Ema of 5

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

Of course they would say Baruch HaShem!! Or whatever version of that they would say :-) after hurricane sandy, I said Baruch HaShem my basement didn't get flooded and my house didn't have any damage. HaShem brought the hurricane, but for whatever reason He decided that our house should be spared. Should we not be grateful for that?

amother

Tan

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 12:56 pm

amother wrote:

Well, what you can say is that Hashem uses different 'middos' at different times.

When the girls got lost and spent a terrifying night in a swampy thicket - that was Hashem using din.

When the rescue searchers found them, safe and sound, in an isolated, dense area - that was Hashem using chessed.

Hence, chasdei Hashem that the girls were found, because had Hashem continued using din, this story could have a horrific ending.

PinkFridge

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 1:43 pm

amother wrote:

And think of all the 9-11 stories. People who experienced them and their loved ones certainly needed to recognize the hashgacha pratis. And as was said (I think Rabbi Reisman, maybe at a shloshim gathering) the people who r"l did not have miracles also experienced hashgacha pratis.

WastingTime

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 1:57 pm

This is a fundamental hashkafic question. B"h, feeling better, well Hashem alllowed you to get sick, b"h, car crash wasn't hurt, well Hashem made car crash tobegin with etc etc. I naturally have no problems withthese type things (so no good answers), but it comes up on daily level so it's worth trying to sort out for yourself.
*sorry for the poor writing, on my phone and batterys about to die

sweetpotato

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 2:11 pm

I think we say "chasdei Hashem" when the result is a kindness/miracle we can understand on our (limited) human, emotional level. We say BDE when we cannot understand emotionally how the outcome could be good, though we know everything from Hashem is good, so all we can do is acknowledge that we know Hashem is the true judge. Both come from our limitations as humans.

(Full disclosure: I don't know if I truly feel all this, but I think this is what I'm supposed to believe.)

etky

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 4:48 pm

sweetpotato wrote:

This. Exactly.
Both chessed and din are equal reflections of emet - Divine, absolute justice.
People often mistakenly perceive an unaccountable or apparently unwarranted salvation or chas veshalom calamity as an event that suspends or supercedes justice.
This is not true. Both chessed and din operate within the system of Divine justice.
They do not exceed or rupture its bounds.
As humans we only perceive the most superficial layers of this system.
Our labels and expressions are a reflection of our superficial, human understanding of events.

amother

Cyan

Sun, Apr 10 2016, 7:10 pm

What about the Sassoon family? I'm pointing them out as their tragedy is so beyond belief. Way above the countless other tragedies that happen.

Or the holocaust, how many entire families were wiped out? How many people survived but their life was irrevocably ruined as they lost everyone and everything.