Best way to answer a teen about H's existence?

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:49 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

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This is the classic Kuzari proof. The problem with it is that it relies on the assumption that there really were 600,000 men there to begin with. What if it happened with only a few thousand and later on the number became inflated (as many myths do)? The only way you know that there were 600K people to begin with is because... the Torah says so. In short, the problem is that the Kuzari "proof" uses the Torah to prove the Torah. That, in short, is no proof at all.

Tammy

two things Tammy:

1) Could you picture 'selling the Brooklyn Bridge" to an entire nation? Maybe one or two or ten or twelve people can be hypntised or brainwashed into believing something, but not an entire nation.

And yet the masses all believed lots of crazier things for longer periods of times. Just because a lot of people believe in something doesn't make it true. Entire nations have been sold on the worship of Zeus, on the idea that the world is flat and that the sun goes around the earth.

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But supposing that you could sell it to a thousand people,
do you think it would endure in an unbroken chain for all the generations without change the way the Torah has?

All of the above examples that I gave endured for millenia. And lest you state that all of the above have since been disproven or discredited, keep in mind that there is no logical proof that the Torah will not be disproven in the future too.

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2) the second example I brought, about the four animals with only one siman of kashrus, can serve as an independent proof to the first, that the Torah is G-d given and true, and there were 600,000 adult males .

You completely ignored what I wrote! You're still insisting that there are only four. Please address my points that (a) you have to define ma'ale geirah and the problems of other animals that are similar to the non-ruminating hare and hyrax and (b) the llama, guanaco, vicuna and alapca, all of which are ruminants but don't have split feet.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:52 pm

Nomad wrote:

TammyTammy-

600,000 men by sinai meant that there was actually close to 1.5 - 2 million people there (adding women and children)

if there was only a few 1000 people there, the torah would not have been accepted. people looking at the torah would see that inflated number and say its just not true - what are you trying to pull?

in other words, a small number of people cannot claim that a large number of people saw something. it would not be accepted because it would be seen as straight out false.

thats the beauty of the argument - the proof is in the number.

But how do you know that 600K men were there to begin with? You know it because it's in the Torah! The whole proof hinges on that number (or, more precisely, on the scale of the number) and yet the only source for it is in the document you are trying to prove. In essence, that boils down to the Torah is true because it says it's true. I'm sorry... that's no proof.

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is there any other myth youve seen with majorly inflated numbers? (seriously - im curious)

Don't know offhand. But it doesn't make a difference. The truth of the Kuzari proof rests or falls on it's own merits, not based on whether other myths are inflated.

Tammy

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 3:58 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

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Firstly, this isn't proof that the Torah was written by HaShem, merely an argument in the hypothesis's favor.

no, it's something that no human being could have dared to write, because one can never be sure of what will be discovered. And if someone would have been reckless enough to assert such a statement, in the course of the ensuing millenia, he would have been proven wrong, and unmasked.

The only One who could make that statement without fear of refutation is the Creator of heaven and earth. The fact that despite all the discoveries, and advancments that HAVE been made, there weren't any other such creatures discovered in the thousands of years since,proves that indeed it is He who made the statement.

That doesn't prove anything. Perhaps the author was human and reckless. Or perhaps the human author simply didn't think it through. Or perhaps he thought that he had an encyclopedic knowledge of the wildlife of the time and had the hubris to think that he'd never be disproven.

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Secondly, the "four animals" proof is just as shaky as the Kuzari proof. First, you have to translate ma'ale geirah. It clearly doesn't mean "ruminant" in the classic sense (as in a cow), as the hare and hyrax do not ruminate. If you expand the definition of ma'ale geirah to incluce animals that engage in ruminant-like behavior, then there are many other animals that fit that category that do not have split hooves. Kangaroos are an example.

In addition, the llama and vicuna ruminate but do not have split hooves.

Tammy

Why do you have to translate it? In the original Hebrew it's clear enough what it means. If you want to get picky, and differentiate between actual rumination and ruminant like behaviour, you will be relieved to know that other animals that display this kind of behavior, are just variations of the four. a llama for example is a type of camel, not another distinct species.[/quote]

If you think ma'ale geirah is as straightforward as you claim, how do you explain the fact that hares and hyraxes are NOT ruminants?

And the llama is a camelid, but not a camel. A dog and a wolf are far more closely related (and yet regarded by the Torah as two distinct species) than the camel and the llama. Saying that the llama, alpaca, et al are camels but the wolf is not a dog is a biiiiiig stretch.

Tammy

amother

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:01 pm

I remember discussing this topic on a date and commenting that Judaism is such a beautiful religion for children- for instance- The Holidays, that children would never want to question and certainly not abandon. The glee in homes on Shabbosim, Chanukah, Purim, Shevuos.... That was 30 years ago. What has happened since, I'm not sure, but I have some suspicions.

My personal opinion is the materialism in our midst, that overshadows Frumkeit. The focus on beautiful clothes, homes, vacations, all have a negative effect, I say. If people would feel fulfilled with their religion more, they wouldn't need the other stuff as much, and kids see this, how we idolize Askonim, and materialistic objects etc.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:07 pm

TzenaRena wrote:

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Except that the list of Mitzvos weren't codified until much later on. And some of the different codifiers each have slightly different lists of the 613 Mitzvos!

And so? the mitzvos themselves - whether codifier differ as to which of them are considered as a branch of a different mitzvah, and which are the root of the mitzvah, or vice versa - haven't changed at all.

Huh? Please elaborate.. I'm not sure what you're getting at here. Please give an example.

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and the number too is a constant. All codifiers agree that there are 613, as stated in Torah Sheb'al Peh.

That's not a proof either. There could have been a tradition that there were 613 mitzvos and the later codifiers tried to fit them into the text of the Torah. The fact that a group of people all hand down one fact is not proof that the fact itself is divinely inspired.

Tammy

Nomad

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:07 pm

Quote:

exactly - the fact that it says it means its true, because otherwise people looking at it would not accept it as true.

let me give another example...if a book about the holocaust were to say that 6billion instead of 6million died in the holocaust, you would say "I cant accept that book - what theyre saying is totally untrue!" and we would say that even 3-4 generations after the holocaust happened...

same thing here...the scale was so great that an inflation of that number would be too ludicrous to accept if it was not true. the fact that it is there in the torah means it must be true otherwise people wouldnt accept it.

MODS - please separate this topic into another post!! Smile

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:09 pm

Nomad wrote:

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That's a rather poor example, Nomad. There are plenty of sources and lots of evidence external to your hypothetical book that millions and not billions of people died in the Holocaust. There's NO external evidence that 600K men stood at Sinai.

Tammy

Last edited by TammyTammy on Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:09 pm; edited 1 time in total

HindaRochel

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:09 pm

Nomad wrote:

Well yeskie was suppose to have shown himself to some large number of people, I don't remember how many.

This particular proof is dependent upon an unbroken chain of knowledge, which, if true would be very strong proof indeed of Matan Torah...however, it wouldn't take a great deal of people to sit down and deliberately plan a story based on 6,000 males receiving the Torah, it would take a group of adults who could refer to this fictious past, and the children who are born to them who were either too young when the fictive past were concieved or not yet born. The group would have to include a mixed selection of adults in terms of ages to really be successful or a smart adult would wonder where all the grandma and grandpas were (when they were a child). For a good example of this type of myth building, see THE VILLAGE...not perfect for this example but close enough.
A disaster could be invoked to allay the suspicions of those who would point to the smallness of the group vis a vis the largeness of this putated historical group.

While it is possible to concieve of such a scenario, the likihood of such an event having taken place is not great imho. This putative group would need to be large enough to either sustain itself away from other groups, or strong enough to invade other groups and either kill adult/older children of the other groups or persuade them to accept the mythos that were created (and which the other groups, living in proximity would have strong evidence that they were being fed lies.) I do not think this is how most religions are born, but my knowledge is limited in that area.

However, I have always felt that any proof of G-d was ill conceived. There must come a time when one relies on faith alone. This is rather scary for some people. It is not for me. But I do believe at some point one must accept G-d without evidence or not accept G-d because the evidence is lacking. I made that commitment when I was age 12 or so; at that point I simply believed. Perhaps though I am unusual in not needing further proof.

I think Rosehill is correct; you need to find the source of her questioning (are you certain they are doubts and not just intellectual curiosity?) rather than try and prove the existence of Hashem, because for all proofs, please believe me, there is a method of falsifying those proofs (as with intelligent design).

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:22 pm

Nomad wrote:

TammyTammy,
think about this a little more...

would a group of a few thousand believe that a few generations ago a group of a few million got the torah? they would say - no this is bull and really impossible because we are only a few thousand.

Or they might accept the myth. Groups of people have been deluded to accept things that were a lot stranger than millions of people standing at a mountain.

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the fact that the torah was accepted means that those who accepted it agreed with that number

the proof lies within the sheer scale

Wrong. That's not a proof. You're assuming that everyone is always clear-thinking and rational and would never accept the preposterous. Well, people have accepted things that were far more preposterous -- millions of Greeks believed that Zeus changed Io into a cow, that Apollo rides on his chariot every day across the sky and that the Trojan War was started by Paris picking the wrong woman in a contest.

The point still remains that the whole proof hinges on the scale of the number -- but the only source for that number is the document you are trying to prove. That still boils down to saying "The Torah is true because it says it's true." Sorry, but that's not a proof.

Tammy

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:27 pm

So let's say five thousand people got together and concocted the story of Matan Torah (the giving of the Torah). Is it possible that after creating the story themselves they decided to include restrictions like only eating certain types of food, not doing any melacha on Shabbos and not touching their wives part of the month??? shock

The other beliefs mentioned do not entail any obligations.
Believe in J and you'll be saved. (What have I got to lose? Confused

)
The moon is made of green cheese/ the world is flat. (What difference does it make what I believe?)

Plus what HR wrote.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:31 pm

shalhevet wrote:

Other cultures have stranger customs and taboos. Are you prepared to accept them as divine? Some leaders have even inspired mass suicide. Were their instructions divine?

Obviously not. The fact that we abstain from work one day a week, from relations two weeks out of a month and have other rituals that would otherwise seem odd and strange does not prove that said rituals are divine.

Tammy

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:33 pm

amother wrote:

Nomad wrote:

would a group of a few thousand believe that a few generations ago a group of a few million got the torah? they would say - no this is bull and really impossible because we are only a few thousand.

That's no proof. What about each of the other religions having "proof" that their G-d is the true G-d, because of something that happened years ago. They ALL currently have many believers and followers, more than we do.

Of course it is. No other religion claims that 2-3 million people heard G-d speaking to them. They are all based on the claim of one person that G-d spoke to them.

So if I tell you that G-d spoke to me and told you to go clean out your house from every little crumb of chametz for a festival which starts next month, are you going to do it?

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:39 pm

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Hi Abe!

Hi!

Did you know that you stood at Mount Sinai last year and heard G-d speak to you?

No, can't say I do.

Well, you did. Remember?

No, I don't remember as it happens.

OK, so you don't remember, but you did.

Oh OK (trying to get rid of him) I was there.

Great. I'm glad you remember.

OK, so now go home and don't touch your wife for the next week.

TammyTammy

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:42 pm

shalhevet wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

shalhevet wrote:

Ha ha.

Seriously, groups of people do have customs, taboos and rituals that aren't divinely inspired. It's entirely possible that the Jews could have had said customs, taboos and rituals already for whatever reason and then later on ascribed them to God at Mt. Sinai.

Tammy

shalhevet

Mon, Aug 06 2007, 4:45 pm

or:

Hi Abe!

Hi!

Just wanted to remind you that your ancestors were at Matan Torah 50/100/1000 years ago.

Matan what?

Matan Torah, you know, when G-d spoke to your father/ grandfather/ ancestor.

Don't believe you.

Well, of course He did.

So, if He did, why have I never heard anything about it before. Well maybe he forgot to tell me.

Oh and by the way, there were another 2 million people there.

Like who?

Like all your family's ancestors.

But no-one has ever told me about it until now. And I just checked out and no-one else in the world has ever heard of it until now.

So, I'm telling you. And, by the way, you better run off now and put on these black boxes. And make sure you do every day.