There is Chassidish and then there is Chassidish

watergirl

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 6:44 am

amother wrote:

It's not what it means, it's the negative connotations that are disgusting. Think 'bummy', wannabe-ish...

I see this attitude way too often, and it is disturbing and condescending.

Chassidish people are people too. If a chassidish woman wants to dress more trendy, wear a longer shaitel, become more worldly, etc., how dare we slap on a derogatory title?

I've seen this a lot in my litvish community, which borders a chassidish one - we tend to hold chassidim to a certain superficial standard, and limit them to our expectations of what chassidim are. Anyone who doesn't meet those standards is a 'tuna beigel.'

Um, hello?

If a very yeshivish woman starts wearing longer shaitels, do we call her any names? No.

So why the double standards with chassidim?

Plus, there are many people who are culturally chassidish or heimish - the men wear the levush, but the girls go to Bais Yaakovs, and they are raised in a more American, open environment than many other chassidim. Why would you call them tuna beigels? Just because their father and husband happens to wear a shtreimel? That is extremely silly and superficial.

Re: the bold part - you've never heard of a "Hot Chani"? Its a not nice term for a yeshivish woman who dresses trendy and wears a long sheitel. Look on this site to see it in action!

amother

Azure

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 7:54 am

As a Lubavitcher who has many Litvish and Chassidish friends, colleagues and relatives, I've noticed, just my observation of people I know that some of the chassidish ladies do dress trendier and more modern than expected from them, usually the husbands although dress chassidish aren't the same breed as the ones that I know that truly follow their Rebbes on all matters.
The ones who follow their Rebbes closely look and act like the Chassidim we always imagine.

I know a few litvish families, where the wife looks plain frum, a little trendy but regular nice shaitel, tsnius skirts and their husbands will wear shorts and t-shirts, no beards etc.

I noticed that by Chassidim the dress is kept more by men and litvish by the women.

I didn't mention Lubavitch as thats a whole different pandora's box.

I hope I'm not insulting anyone, this is just anecdotal evidence that I observed.

PinkFridge

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 9:10 am

amother wrote:

Research the term "Tuna-Beigel". Tongue Out

I wasn't going to respond till the end of the thread but while you may be correct in some cases, you're not correct in all.

OP, there's a great book called The Road Back by R' Mayer Schiller. Towards the end he tries to describe different groups across the spectrum of authentic Judaism. Now this book is over 30 years old, and due to space constraints this part is a bit simplistic, but he seems to posit that a major factor in defining different groups is how much they interface with the outside world.

Here's my take: Chassidism (I won't talk about Lubavitch, and Breslov, here) was largely rebuilt after WWII, by survivors. There was a great emphasis on maintaining every detail of the "heim", and possibly there was this emphasis before too, but this is something you see very much. They are also extremely insular.

There is no such thing as a pure bubble now. You will see some more integration with the outside world: look at all the very chassidish - seamed stockings, Williamsburg or other such enclaves - members here. And some people find that they can't live in the communities, they need more breathing space and opportunities but they don't want to throw out what they consider the essence of their spirituality. It makes them a bit of an anomaly, and this is where the tuna bagel meme might come in, but B"H they're not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and many of them are thinking, consistent ovdei Hashem. But it can be confusing if you haven't had exposure to the community.

As far as Lubavitch, they do not place the same value on insularity. They will not live in specific enclaves. While their lifestyle - the Torah sources they learn most, interpretations of halacha and customs (Pesach cooking anyone? Wink

), other things I can't think of at the moment - are very distinctly Lubavitch, in terms of dress, where they choose to live, and other externals, they will not follow the Chassidish model above.

Non-Chassidim of European background will be a bit less insular in many ways.

amother

Jetblack

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 9:31 am

It's so funny you mentioned this, OP. I am on vacation for pesach in the caribbeans and there is about 5-6 couples that came together who dress the trendy outfits long sheitel etc (not judging, I proudly wear my 26" sheitel. It's my mitzvah I'll do it how I want). I grew up knowing ZERO about chassidic ppl, and when I saw that same group of people who were at the beach dressed in trendy bathing suits (wives in their cute cover ups) and then at shul with the chassidish garb I went to my husband and said LOOK!!! What's that about??? And he's from Brooklyn so he explained to me that not all chassidim dress like that and there are more relaxed and trendy ones. They seem really cool and I wanted to stir up a convo with them!

Daniellast

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 9:51 am

Well, most of you have the term chassidish wrong. Chassidish has nothing much with the way you dress. Chassidish means you belong to a Rebbe and follow his guidance. Yes, then you're husband (and sons) may dress according to their specific chassidus. One can be chassidish and dress frum or like a hipster. Your dress code says who you are in your heart (frum, modern, trendy etc) in the litvish world you have the exact same thing.

dimyona

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 10:14 am

Daniellast wrote:

Your dress code says who you are in your heart (frum, modern, trendy etc) in the litvish world you have the exact same thing.

No, a dress code is either how you feel like dressing, how you want people to think of you, or sometimes simply the tendency to conform or vice versa.

I've met many people wearing shtreimels who are barely frum in the way they act and speak, I've met some who wish they wouldn't be forced to wear one because their heart is somewhere else, and many who haven't given it a second thought.

Clothing is the most superficial and innacurate way to define people, frumkeit or otherwise.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 10:30 am

dimyona wrote:

Agree.
This is especially true in the Chassidish society where the slightest deviation can cause serious consequences, so you have scores of people wearing the costume to the fullest extent but it doesn't reflect what they feel or think at all.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 10:59 am

Daniellast wrote:

Well, most of you have the term chassidish wrong. Chassidish has nothing much with the way you dress. Chassidish means you belong to a Rebbe and follow his guidance.

Actually...

There are many chassidish people today who consider themselves 'neutral' chassidish, meaning that they don't 'belong' to a Rebbe but have the same chassidish minhagim and approach as people who follow a Rebbe.

Either way, I find it sad that that's what remains of chassidus today in many cases - the Rebbe, the minhagim, and the levush.

It was the Rebbe Elimelech from Lizhensk who really developed and popularized the whole Rebbe phenomenon like we see it today.

Before that, chassidus had much more to do with pnimiyus ha'Torah and avodas Hashem.

And from what I see in the Chassidish communities (not speaking about Chabad and Breslov here), most of that is gone. There is so much stress on external things - which were not the intention or goal of Chassidus at all when it started. And I think that is such a sad, tragic loss.

ETA: I hope this doesn't imply any negativity re Rebbe Elimelech - I mentioned him to show how the Rebbe part of Chassidus as we see it today came much, much later in the game.

amother

Green

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 12:38 pm

amother wrote:

THIS. THIS THIS THIS.

Clothing and divination from clothing is a huge deal and I cant understand why.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:43 pm

amother wrote:

because yeshivish is a much broader term, encompassing a braod range. whereas, textbook chassidish is a very narrow box to fit in, and if you don't fit in, you need a new label.
(not condoning the term at all, just saying)

Okay, so since for some reason we need to have labels for every nuance... I have family who is describe as chilled yeshivish, open-minded yeshivish, shtark yeshivish, modern yeshivish, lite yeshivish, middle-of-the-road yeshivish...

There are so many variations of chassidish. Every chassidus has its own nuance, and its own degrees. And there are chassidish people who don't follow a specific chassidus. And some who incorporate a few.

Chassidish is a SPECTRUM like EVERY other derech.

So - the reason why I was upset at the poster who called anyone who dresses more "normal", as the OP described: Why does everyone else have the right to be chilled or intense or centrist or whatever, but chassidish people must follow the dictates of society's perceived box of them - and if not, they are slapped with a derogatory title of 'tuna beigel'?

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:47 pm

amother wrote:

Chassidish is a SPECTRUM like EVERY other derech.

So - the reason why I was upset at the poster who called anyone who dresses more "normal", as the OP described: Why does everyone else have the right to be chilled or intense or centrist or whatever, but chassidish people must follow the dictates of society's perceived box of them - and if not, they are slapped with a derogatory title of 'tuna beigel'?

S-xuality is a spectrum. Autism is a spectrum. Since when is Chassidish a spectrum?

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 1:52 pm

amother wrote:

S-xuality is a spectrum. Autism is a spectrum. Since when is Chassidish a spectrum?

I hope you're joking.

You do know the definition of the word spectrum, right?

In case you don't - it's a range. There are two extremes. There are also all the degrees between the two extremes.

Many things can be classified on a spectrum. It wasn't created just to classify s-xuality or autism.

Then again, I do think you were joking and this post was superfluous.

amother

Aquamarine

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:00 pm

amother wrote:

No. There can't be an extreme of a Chassidish spectrum where the "left" end of it is women with dark nail polish and short skintight clothes. That's not how it works with Chassidish. You're either mostly in the box or you're just not what contemporary culture describes as Chassidish.

A woman at the beach with a bikini and uncovered hair may just as well be Muslim as Chassidish; she is neither, no matter how Chassidish she considers herself.

IMO, in contemporary Chassidish culture, there is no spectrum, there is only a box. That's the way I see it, and that's the way the majority of Chassidish people see it.

cnc

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:07 pm

amother wrote:

Except that Muslim is a religion and chassidus is not.

Also I don't think that the majority of Chassidish people see chassidus as a box. Maybe in your circles it's seen as such.

amother

Coffee

Thu, Apr 28 2016, 2:08 pm

amother wrote:

Did I mention a woman at the beach with a bikini and uncovered hair? Or even dark nail polish?

I was thinking of - a Stolin or Boyan woman in Brooklyn or Lakewood with a longer sheitel who looks yeshivish, drives, doesn't shave, has a degree, etc., compared to a Satmar woman from Williamsburg or Monroe who wears a shpitzel, seams, shaves, doesn't drive, etc. (Sorry for the stereotypes.)

Is the Stolin woman, who leads a simple kollel life and whose husband goes to his Rebbe in Eretz Yisroel every Rosh Hashana, a tuna beigel?

See, there's different degrees. They're both chassidish - but yes, there is a spectrum. Yes, there may sadly be a box - but the box is bigger than most imagine, and the box has different types at each end, with plenty of other types in between the ends. That is, if you believe it to be a box.