How do you justify Pesach programs AND tuition assistance???

saw50st8

Thu, May 05 2016, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

Saw50, the response was to the comments below, you can't compare even a few small gifts or babysitting so a couple can go out for supper to saving on childcare for a working parent or free groceries on an ongoing basis.

"From my experience everyone gets something free in life. Let's say both parents work and grandmother babysits for free so that's s lot of money saved at the end of the month do we expect such a person to go to the school and say I save $2500 a month on child care so I want to pay more tuition to help others.

If someone has a relative that owns a grocery store and they get food for free or cheaper do we expect them to tell this to the school so that their expenses are less?"

I agree that there are vast differences. But when people say "I never got anything for free!" and actually mean it, they are usually in the extreme minority.

Tuition assistance will never be "fair" or "equitable." I've ranted and raved myself about this (especially when people won't give up their luxuries that they call necessities and ask for tuition assistance). But everyone has some source of something that others don't have that helps them in life. Sometimes, it's just having 2 living parents. Sometimes, it's parents who will babysit or give you money. Sometimes, it's emotional support.

As an aside, one of the local high schools sends a letter that says if you are going to summer camp, regardless of who pays, it will affect your scholarship status. So if a grandparent wants to gift a trip on Achva or NCSY, the family may lose their scholarship. Teenagers don't need camp anymore in the sense that they can be left home alone while a parent works, so it's a pure luxury.

amother

Aubergine

Thu, May 05 2016, 11:27 am

[/quote] I had a friend growing up who had grand parents who were not frum and much wealthier then they were (lived in a different country and didn't help with regular day to day life - my friend lived pretty simply) .

Whenever they would want to give the family a large gift the father asked they apply toward tuition, and later toward supporting his married children who were in kollel.

His reasoning was that if they are supporting torah then they get the schar for the torah, even though they themselves aren't shomer torah and mitzvos.

This went on for years and the father was really happy that his parents were getting so much reward.[quote]

My parents ends my in laws are both not frum. Our kids are their only grandchildren, and we live in Israel.
My in laws find the kind of Jewish education we want for our kids to be personally offensive. My parents feel that our necessities are our responsibility.

When they give me gifts (when they come to visit with a full suitcase of toys, clothes, etc, or, as has happened a couple times, paid for tickets to come visit), whether I think thats the best use of my own money or not, I don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

I am not my parents, I wouldn't necessarily spend my money the way they do, but I can still be appreciative. It is, in a very real way, kibud av vem.

Everything in my life is different than theirs. Why on earth would I ask them to have the same financial priorities I do?
Its hard enough asking them to keep their opinion of our chinuch choices to themselves around my kids.

Iymnok

Thu, May 05 2016, 11:27 am

amother wrote:

From my experience everyone gets something free in life. Let's say both parents work and grandmother babysits for free so that's s lot of money saved at the end of the month do we expect such a person to go to the school and say I save $2500 a month on child care so I want to pay more tuition to help others.

If someone has a relative that owns a grocery store and they get food for free or cheaper do we expect them to tell this to the school so that their expenses are less?

Besides DH's yerusha, my parents come once a year or so. But their trip is split between the five of us. So we get a couple hour of babysitting and a little groceries- which they eat from too...
We are fine with it and enjoy my parents visits. But there's not much free coming out of it. It's very nice when my mother can find someone to bring us some gifts for the kids or to bring us a web purchase. We have learned to be financially responsible and self sufficient.

It's not that uncommon to not have freebies in life.

amother

Violet

Thu, May 05 2016, 11:42 am

My parents give very very little financially to us. And I don't want them to. They worked hard their whole lives and had a big family, let them enjoy their retirement. I love seeing my mother (finally!) spend money on herself.

We have hardly received a penny from them since my wedding. (and even before I had to spend my own money on clothing and sheitals) If they had the money, I'm sure they would give us money. If we really needed the money I'm sure they would too. They also live in another city. So maybe I get a few hours of babysitting from them a couple of times a year when I visit.

We do get more from my inlaws - they own a business so we get a free supply of what they sell. (which maybe saves us $20 a week.) And they do help us out a bit more financially when needed (eg for simchos, or once when I was sick they gave us money to pay for help) which is very generous of them.

Bylu5581

Thu, May 05 2016, 11:49 am

amother wrote:

Just wondering if you would ask your parents for help on a down payment for a house, or would you also consider that simply not your business how your parents choose to spend their money?

As others mentioned, that's a very different thing. I might ask for help for a down payment, but only as a loan.

However, most importantly, Im not buying a house or asking them too, because its not their problem that we decided to pursue a higher education. We try to live withing our means and so we live in a small apartment which we can afford. Living within our means educationally, would mean putting my boys in public school which im not willing to do. So we pay tuition as much as we can afford, and happily accept any gifts including clothes and pesach programs and If my parents ever offered to buy a house, I would definitely accept.

amother

Chartreuse

Thu, May 05 2016, 1:34 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

To momoftwo and chartreuse, I find it hard to believe that you never got anything. When you travel to visit them they don't watch your sleeping kids so you can go out for a little while on your own? They never bought you so much as a box of tissues or an article of clothing for your kids? I really do find that hard to believe.

Maybe they set you up in other ways - not requiring their teenage kids to buy their own clothing so they could save up their own money instead? Or helping pay for college? Did they require you to start paying room and board the moment you turned 18 (I know people in that situation)?

If your answer is that neither of your parents ever gave you anything, then yes, you are in the extreme minority.

Like cyan said. We don't have to bring our own tissues when we visit. They are normal. But no they don't babysit when we come to visit or buy my kids clothes. And yes I bought my own clothes as a teenager. No I did not pay room and board. The idea is not that my parents are dysfunctional but that not everybody gets free things throughout life

amother

Puce

Thu, May 05 2016, 5:06 pm

Not only don't I get anything from parents or in-laws. I actually host them for Pesach and other Yomim Tovim. No, they don't babysit, bring ANY gifts at all or any perks.
This Pesach, they gave me some money towards food because I ended up hosting a few siblings and for some reason they felt bad.
I'm totally broke, can't pay regular bills, forget about Yom tov, kids in desperate need of shoes, clothes etc, too small, torn etc. Parents didn't say a word, maybe they didn't notice?

I made Pesach without ANY cleaning help or takeout before Pesach. My mil once bought a stretchie for one baby because I named after her mother.

I can name on one hand the amount of help or free items I've received over the years.

The people I know who go to Pesach programs are not getting tuition assistance

amother

Aqua

Thu, May 05 2016, 5:12 pm

amother wrote:

Is there any reason you feel obligated to host your parents and sisters if you can't afford to buy your children basic shoes and clothing?

mommy3b2c

Thu, May 05 2016, 5:13 pm

amother wrote:

Well this is just sad. I dont understand. If you have no money to pay bills, why are you hosting people for pesach?

amother

Puce

Thu, May 05 2016, 5:29 pm

My parents told me that they are coming, siblings had no where else to go, I never invited them. Family is complicated and I didn't have an option to say no. Was crazy as we didn't have room or enough beds, so chaos reigned all over the whole time.

My parents never stayed home and hosted, they used to go to grandparents and then switched to kids once we started getting married. I can write the book on "life's not fair".

sourstix

Thu, May 05 2016, 6:12 pm

I didn't read the whole thread it's way too long
Firstly for those that work in the program or those that have an illness and someone is footing the bill I wouldn't judge
Now those who mention the grandparents that want to spend time with their grandkids and are willing to spend so much even tho they know
the parents are struggling I can kind of understand that they want to spend time that's great but why I such a showy expensive way? Then the parents go to their friends and complain they have no money for tuition and then their friends should have rachmanus on them?
A little diff story I have on ancouple that is struggling terribly they have a severely handicapped child
They went to Israel for 3 weeks for a total of 7 people including 5 kids! Then she had no money to send her boys to day camp and they were home till someone paid for them to go
Is that ok? Now I understand you need to air out but this doesn't make sense and no I don't have rachmanus on her anymore like I used to its misplaced rachmanus
So I can't make others cheshbonos but people are watching how you behave and when you speak one way and act another it infuriates people
It hurts us
No one wants to made to believe and have compassion when people are contradictory I lose respect for such pp

amother

Aqua

Thu, May 05 2016, 6:24 pm

sourstix wrote:

Stop asking why she hosts her parents for yt" it's like a dagger in the heart!
She is financially struggling so she shouldn't have family either?!
I would do whatever it takes to have family for a yt" like Pesach even tho I have times I struggle financially especially grandparents and it's just another 2 pp so that isn't the bulk of expenses

Did you read her full post? She writes that she hosts her siblings as well. Also, she writes that she can't afford to buy her children shoes and clothing? Shouldn't she say no to her siblings and use the money to buy her children shoes that fit? I assume there are details left out of her post because it doesn't make sense.

amother

Slategray

Thu, May 05 2016, 6:34 pm

sourstix wrote:

This. I know many who use their money "irresponsibly" but then claim poverty. Can't afford camp but went on (and paid for it themselves) a nice vacation. Or people who buy steaks but then have no grocery money left/get tomchei or other food packages.
No, I am not nosy but if I go to my neighbor to return an item and she's making steaks again but then I see those brown boxes every Thursday night...
I can go on. I understand people need help and I don't begrudge anyone assistance that they need but if someone spends recklessly in a way to then need tzeddakah, that drives me crazy! Don't go on extensive and lavish vacations if you can't pay your bills!

Dandelion1

Thu, May 05 2016, 6:51 pm

By definition this argument cannot be resolved. There are too many factors. Op, your argument only works in a zero sum game but life is never that (in other words, a situation in which losses and gains are absolute, such as, if the in laws don't spend $10,000 on vacation then the school will get $10,000 more, but in reality, the school will not get anything extra even if the children turn down the vacation offer).

I remember years ago a friend of mine was trying to raise money for her son's tuition which was even higher than usual due to his special needs. She couldn't cover it. She didn't believe in credit cards, and carried no debt. We on the other hand, were carrying substantial debt, because at the end of the month, when we couldn't cover the tuition, guess what? It got charged on our card.

Is that a wise policy? Probably not, but I have other friends and family members who are forced to do the same, and that's how we managed. So no, I didn't agree that I needed to donate tzedaka to her and her husband's debtless existence.

But was she wrong to say she needed help? I don't know.... Not really.... It's awfully complex and like I said, oftentimes are too many factors to consider.

And like others said, you cannot expect absolute fairness in life. There is a truly destitute family that I am involved with, and the mother is often wearing uggs and designer outfits. Why? Because there is a wealthy woman who helps her out by giving her last year's "outdated" clothing. Ironically this mother is totally clueless about designer clothing and has no idea what she is wearing. All she cares about is that she has a warm coat.... Life is complex and usually we know a small percentage of anyone's true story.