How do you justify Pesach programs AND tuition assistance???

seeker

Sun, Jun 05 2016, 10:54 pm

amother wrote:

I know of a very well to do family in Lakewood that chose to make their daughter's wedding in the cheapest hall in town, I don't know the reason. Parents of classmates of the girl called to thank the parents (some emotionally) for making it possible for them to make a more reasonably priced wedding.
It helped in a single class, but it isn't bringing change to a community.

Why do you think it didn't bring wider change? I have heard of such things in the past. It makes a big statement. You think the kallah's classmates were the only ones at that wedding? They are kids. What about all the parents' friends? They will no longer feel like choosing that hall is like saying they're a nebach, because the Golddrippers made their wedding there and everyone knows they're not nebachs. What about the chosson's side? Now his brothers and sisters won't have to feel like their wedding wasn't as nice as their brother's. Of course you can mussar all you want about how they shouldn't and wouldn't be jealous of their brother but I'm sure it makes a difference that there wasn't this other wedding that was so far above everyone else's.

And the biggest part of all - if everyone says their individual choice won't bring change to the whole community, and therefore chooses to keep doing what they would have done otherwise, then of course change will never happen. Or you can do the right thing, either it will ripple out or it won't, but you'll live and die with the knowledge that you did your part in whatever way you could.

LittleDucky

Mon, Jun 06 2016, 12:36 am

We all need to spend less and save more. People will always have more or better things than you. Get over it and stop trying to keep up! Do what you like, do how you think is best for you but don't ask me to fund it. If you go to pesach programs, have a $1000 stroller or Sukkos in Israel- good for you. I won't do that and don't expect or even ask for a tuition reduction if I did that. Save for when illness, job loss, or another crises occurs!
It is so annoying when "everyone" has to get the city mini or uppababy. Where people don't feel they have a choice because if they use a Graco (which many I know actually prefer but won't admit in public) then that 6 month old will be irreparably harmed, need therapy for at least 5 years and will never get a shidduch as the shidduchim boys of 2030 will say it's Pasht nisht to date a Graco Girl.

Fox

Mon, Jun 06 2016, 11:24 am

amother wrote:

Even though I hear the concept of the wealthy spending less to lower standards and prevent ppl from going into debt to make a wedding, it still bothers me. It reminds me too much of the mother who calls her daughters teacher to say tht if her dd can't have the main part in play, no one should have it; all parts should be equal.

Why can't we all just grow up and accept that others have more than us??

You make a good point, but human psychology doesn't work that way.

Do you own a refrigerator or rent one as part of your apartment lease? You probably would consider it a necessity, right? But the majority of people in the world don't have access to home refrigeration. I wasn't able to get statistics that I feel are above reproach, but I came across 17-25 percent through various Google searches. Since only 75 percent of the world has access to home electricity, that figure is somewhat believable.

But would those statistics make you feel better if your refrigerator broke and couldn't be replaced for a month or two? Would you say, "Oh, well! Some people have refrigerators and some don't."? Or would you consider it a significant problem that had to be addressed right away?

Your example suggests that the problems of financial inequity are zero-sum: that one side or the other must provide the solution unilaterally.

I don't believe that's true. I think both "sides" have jobs to do in promoting healthy consumption within our communities: the well-to-do need to provide leadership and do their best to serve as role models of mindful consumption, and the less-well-to-do need to examine and curtail their aspiration or envy.

A question that comes up at almost every Pesach seder is, "Why were the Mitzrim punished for enslaving the Yidden when Hashem orchestrated their time in Mitzraim and deliberately hardened Paro's heart?" Although the question can be answered on many levels (depending on how late you're willing to stay up!), the basic answer is, "Because the Mitzrim went overboard; they didn't just enslave the Yidden, they afflicted them."

We can apply the same principle to the issue of financial equity within our communities. Yes, wealthy people are permitted and even expected to have a "better" lifestyle. But they have an obligation not to go overboard; not to "afflict" others through their actions or to undermine their communities.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 4:47 am

tzemerupishtim wrote:

My grandparents took their three kids and families to a five day vacation each year in a hotel and for chanuka gave each child $5,000 to do as they saw fit. Some used it partially for tuition and partially to get things they wanted. T

A grandparent has the right to take their children on vacations . They have no obligation to fund the crazy fees that are being charged for tuition these days. Would the schools go without janitors etc? The schools really need to super scrutinize their money management before they dare go into other people's pockets.

I'm wondering if anyone consulted daas Torah on the issue.

amother

Azure

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 5:01 am

amother wrote:

I'm wondering if anyone consulted daas Torah on the issue.

What happened to good old common sense? Do I actually need to as a Rabbi if I can accept the gift?
If I'm given a holiday and spending money am I obliged to give every penny to the school? (Yes I have paid up what I have agreed to with the school) are my children not allowed to be given something they are not desperate for?can I not buy something extra for myself? I think quite honestly grandparents would be hurt if their gift money didn't go to something for extra enjoyment and went towards the bills.

amother

Saddlebrown

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 5:23 am

amother wrote:

I'm all in favour of common sense. In the case of tuition discounts, there's community tzedaka money at stake. So that's where daas Torah comes in. What's wrong with asking if a large gift should go to the school, at least in part? If the answer is so obvious, the rov will tell the recipient to keep the gift.

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 6:59 am

Except in extremely egregious cases of dishonesty and fraud, this is an impossible dilemma to resolve. For the most part,everyone will have something that can be looked upon from the outside and judged.

How about this one? Anytime someone posts an emotional struggle here on imamother, there are a slew of kind responses counseling the op to seek therapy. Clearly we believe in this as an important tool....

I had a close friend who was receiving considerable financial aid, and raising tzedaka money to supplement on top of that. And her mil was paying for her to see a therapist, at $250/session. $1,000/month for her therapy.

What do you think of that? Therapy is important right? So that was right? Or wrong?

(For clarity's sake: she had no history of abuse or ptsd or any condition that would necessitate therapy for the sake of functionality. She struggled with some low grade anxiety, and felt that the therapy made her happier and better overall)

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 7:27 am

amother wrote:

People have lots of needs, and we struggle to balance them all. I don't imagine anyone would say someone should forego medical care or therapy just because she's not paying tuition. Those are not the same as a vacation, though again, there may be rare circumstances where even that is warranted.

This conversation is about people who are taking tzedaka from the community. So, yes, it does seem appropriate to ask a rov about allocating resources.

OK, I hear you, and it wasn't even her money but a gift from her mil. But I felt that spending that astronomical amount on herself while raising tzedaka from others to pay her dc's tuition was not defensible.

I could have used expensive therapy too, more than she (and yes, I do know this to be true). The therapists on her insurance were not good enough? So I did not choose to donate towards her fundraising.

But I recognize that this can be analyzed in many different ways, which is my point, regardless of how I feel about this particular situation/choice.

Jeanette

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 10:22 am

Fox wrote:

I don't call it "affliction" when people are spending their own money within their means, unless they're actively flaunting or making others feel bad. For example, the so-called "nebach" halls--who decided they're nebach? Are we making people feel like nebachs for using those halls? Are we gossiping about the lavishness of people's weddings or lack thereof? These things go into the category of affliction, maybe, not what people do with their own money.

Now regarding what society considers a norm vs a luxury: one problem is that once something becomes a norm we lose the adaptations that used to help us function without it. For example try finding a public phone in an emergency. Societies without refrigerators have all kinds of techniques for preparing and preserving food but we have lost those skills. (And in many of those societies dysentery is rampant so I'm not going to rhapsodize about the wonders of a simpler life.)

Another example, we rarely use AC and we are well adjusted but we don't want our guests to be uncomfortable so we put it on shabbos and in our guest bedroom. In most places you can function without AC but once you're used to it it's hard to go back.

MrsDash

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 11:05 am

amother wrote:

I find this hard to believe. Unless you are her therapist, you have no way of knowing her true mental health conditions. Why is it that you feel you're the one to decided who is more deserving of therapy?

amother

Yellow

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 11:10 am

I don't know if someone already said this but...

1) some parents pay for the hotel because they want to spend time with the whole family. Why they don't pay for tuition instead? Who knows? That's how they choose to spend their money.

2) My friend went to a Pessach program and she spoke to a lot of the people there. Some of them are there through some program that helps single mothers in need- so they wouldn't be alone for YT. Maybe there are other programs that help families in need? Maybe they won it in a Chinese auction? Who knows?

I remember my husband lost his job and wasn't working for about 5 months. Right before someone gave me a gift card to a really fancy restaurant. I couldn't use the gift card until he got another job! I was so worried someone would see me and be like "what are they doing at this restaurant if he's out of work?!" Who would have thought "gift card"?

PinkFridge

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 12:54 pm

amother wrote:

I probably said this somewhere up thread but since it's been a while...
Take a wealthy person who decides to spend less than they can for a simcha. (And I think living below their means is incredible for their kids' health and chinuch.) Newsflash: it still might be well above my means.
I'm blessed to live in a community where some wealthy people do live below their means/still above mine and it does make a roshem. B"H my kids never felt that they were shortchanged in major ways and did minimal comparing.

Fox

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 1:44 pm

Jeanette wrote:

For better or worse, the Torah disagrees with you. There are many, many instances where the Torah specifically prohibits people from doing "more" -- even with good intentions. Two obvious examples are the vessels in which korbanos are brought to the Beis Hamikdash and the clothing worn by potential kallahs.

Part of the mentality is the notion of "their own money." As my DH likes to say, you are allowed to do whatever you want with your money. Just as soon as it's your money -- and not Hashem's.

amother wrote:

What happened to good old common sense? Do actually need to as a Rabbi if can accept the gift?

Well, do you use "common sense" when confronted with a question in kashrus? Do you select groceries without a hechsher because, "C'mon, they probably didn't put pigs' feet in that applesauce!"?

It seems incomprehensibe to me that someone would care about kashrus enough to take questions to a rav but consider themselves independent when it comes to financial halachos and hashkafos.

And maybe that's the root of the problem!

amother

Babyblue

Tue, Jun 07 2016, 2:08 pm

Jeanette wrote:

.

Sorry, This really crosses the line. Do you know who they've seen and what their diagnosis is? Is it your business? Digging into people's mental health issues to decide how much and what kind of therapy they need. Rolling Eyes

Well, Jeanette, I anticipated that someone would chime in with a response like yours. It's ok. You don't know me, or my friend, or the relationship, or the situation, so you can either accept my presentation of the facts or not. To answer your questions, yes to all the above. She shared everything, to a fault at times. (Yes, I know, we never really know, blah blah).

I realize that mental health is an extremely private and individual situation. Where you got that I was "digging into" anything I'm not really sure. We were extremely close friends, and partially related as well.

Your self righteous defense of someone you don't even know (and the extremely mature eye roll) don't lend much to the actual conversation here, because this was a real situation and I presented it with a high degree of accuracy.

So yes, I do feel that spending the $1,000 monthly on the private therapy was a huge indulgence, and incidentally, the money eventually dried up and she hasn't sought therapy since.....