How do you justify Pesach programs AND tuition assistance???

seeker

Wed, Jun 08 2016, 7:57 pm

I don't play by the attitude of "It's so little it won't really help anyway." That's the kind of thing that just makes the problem worse. If you have a $50,000 problem, are you going to be better off with a $55,000 problem? And if you say "It's only $10 per student" to just 10 "little" ideas, that's $50,000 your negative attitude just stole from your school.

Plus, there's a lot of room to argue that many things we spend money on are not just unnecessary/extravagant/wasteful but are actually detrimental to the children's education. This is not the time or place for me to get up on my soapbox because I'm practicing self-control and have work and sleeps to do tonight.

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, Jun 08 2016, 9:06 pm

I didn't say not to bother with small savings. I was very clear that schools need to do all they can. What I'm saying is that these savings won't cover the shortfall caused by parents not paying tuition. If you need 7k per child (totally invented, low number) and you save 10 or even 50 dollars with cutbacks, that's just not enough. It's something, it's worth pursuing, but it's not a game changer.

tzemerupishtim

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 12:34 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

THIS is what bothers you about how schools spend their money? That they get janitors? Are you serious? How, exactly, do you propose schools do without custodians and janitors? I am all ears.

Well, the schools ask the parents not to have cleaning help in their homes to pay tuition.. and for the record if the teachers and kids would clean up after themselves each day at the end of the day why would they even need cleaning help that much?

Why is it that parents have to live on barebones budget without cleaning help etc when the schools have help?

And no, it's not the only thing that bothers me. In a day and age when most (if not all ) parents have email, they can send notes via email etc..

There are so many ways that schools can cut.

tzemerupishtim

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 12:39 am

LittleDucky wrote:

Having been through schools that didn't send home huge several page newsletters every week (especially with pictures! On oversized papers!), color copies, where lamination was rare... Where we didn't have posters covering every wall, awards and prizes and parties for every thing...
I don't get it. We didn't need it and I didn't realize I was missing it. Schools have to cut costs. I'd say start with these things...

Janitors are necessary unless every parent goes on the rotation. Great way to keep costs down- one parent from each class gets a night to do their classroom on the rotation, then a second rotation for lunch room/communal areas. Principals must do their offices...
Who's in?

Janitors are not 100 percent necessary. Why do the parents who work themselves so hard to pay tuition have to come in and clean ??? The teachers can take 15-30 minutes WITH the kids at the end of the day to sweep, quick mopping of the classroom.. and the kids or teachers can take turns mopping the hallways.. and each class can take turns with the bathrooms etc.

This is just ONE way to cut expenses beyond excessive notes, laminations etc..

The schools have to make their budgets around what is REASONABLE for the parents to afford considering the other expenses in their life like food, shelter, clothing etc..

To some, having a vacation in a hotel could actually rejuvenate someone to keep going and not be burnt out.

tzemerupishtim

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 12:45 am

amother wrote:

I'm wondering if anyone consulted daas Torah on the issue.

Excuse me , I am a frum person that is all for asking Daas Torah shailos but that comment does not make sense for what I wrote.

My grandparents gave EACH of their children $5,000 to do with as they saw fit .. The grandparents have no obligation every last dollar they have to spare to the tuitions of their grandchildren.. My grandfather worked hard all his life to take care of his family. He had the right to enjoy some time with his children and grandchildren each summer. He also gave a lot of Tzedaka..

I am just curious are Daas Torah consulted before the schools make their schools in a way that is crazy to afford and therefore putting many many frum families under severe financial strain???

tzemerupishtim

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 12:53 am

amother wrote:

I'm all in favour of common sense. In the case of tuition discounts, there's community tzedaka money at stake. So that's where daas Torah comes in. What's wrong with asking if a large gift should go to the school, at least in part? If the answer is so obvious, the rov will tell the recipient to keep the gift.

There is community tzeddaka at stake but the schools have to make a budget that works in a way that does not put severe strain on families. They have to say to themselves that most families make X amount of money and have to spend Y on basic living expenses and therefore can reasonably afford Z to spend on tuition without having to kill themselves.. and then find a building etc that fits within the budget.

Was Daas Torah consulted before the schools started to take into consideration that having parents work super hard and live on literally a bare bones budget would take away from parents being able to have the time and strength to mechanech their children properly?? and then people wonder why there are kids off the derech! Their parents are too busy working so hard and being stressed out paying for tuition etc to give them proper attention..

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 1:40 am

The school I know does consult with a rov in setting priorities. Also, the scholarship committee worked with daas Torah to come up with guidelines.

I really sympathize with the anger and frustration about tuition costs. It's very expensive. The thing is that the school board is not throwing away money. It really costs money to run a school.

If you think it's so awful, start a school of your own. Or at least run the numbers as if you were . Take into account the mortgage, utilities, insurance, health and benefits plans for staff, etc. Then report back.

MagentaYenta

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 6:15 am

amother wrote:

...
If you think it's so awful, start a school of your own. Or at least run the numbers as if you were . Take into account the mortgage, utilities, insurance, health and benefits plans for staff, etc. Then report back.

How many religious schools offer these benefits to teachers and staff?

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 6:26 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

How many religious schools offer these benefits to teachers and staff?

We do, so I included them. Feel free to calculate costs without benefits. I imagine that tuition is lower in schools that don't offer such benefits, anyway.
The underlying issue remains - it costs money to provide an education. That money has to come from somewhere. There are parents who can and do pay tuition (sometimes at great sacrifice), and there are parents who can't and don't pay. The problem is parents who can pay but would rather not, because they would prefer to go on vacation.

LittleDucky

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 8:20 am

amother wrote:

It's not like we all want to go on vacation. I haven't been on one in years and can't afford it so won't do it anytime soon either. We just want an extra few dollars in our account at the end of the month so we aren't scrambling when the car needs repairs, the washer is broken or any number of a million things that reasonably will come up. We pinch pennies- why can't they? I get so frustrated when there's another contest, prize or party. coloring sheets in middle school? Why waste the copies?
It's also that there is zero transparency in the schools and it feels as if there are different standards for different families in how much is expected of them. Why can't they be open with us? These are our operating expenses and itemize it etc.
they want us to itemize our expenses if we can't pay 10,000 a child a year...

amother

Smokey

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 8:47 am

tzemerupishtim wrote:

I am just curious are Daas Torah consulted before the schools make their schools in a way that is crazy to afford and therefore putting many many frum families under severe financial strain???

I do the books for a few schools. If you have a way to restructure the schools in a way that would make tuition easy to afford please let me know what it is. I'll be happy to pass this over. The schools will be happy to listen.

We can probably come up with ways to save a small percentage (probably not even one)of the schools expenses but I don't think it is cost effective for the administration to focus their energies there. Particularly if it a debatable necessity.

The schools that have outside boards of extremely successful businessmen running their finances do not have cheaper tuition and are not ran on a lower budget. The opposite is usually the case.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 8:50 am

LittleDucky wrote:

I mentioned vacations because that was the original topic of the thread, going away for Pesach to a hotel while getting scholarship $

We have a budget available for parents to see (which I believe is mandatory for us as a non-profit institution) and happily take cost cutting suggestions. Sometimes parents suggest things that won't work. Eg, we can't rent the premises out to a day camp because our insurance premiums would go through the roof and no camp here can afford to cover the added cost.

Hashem_Yaazor

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 3:52 pm

I wonder if those who think the school can get away without a janitor have worked in a school. (And I don't have a cleaning lady!)

Teachers spending 20-30 minutes every day cleaning? Should the school day be longer, or the kids learn less?

The teachers in all the schools I am aware of already have their students putting away their belongings, putting their chairs up or in, and general straightening.

But what about emptying the garbage every day so the bugs won't come. Who will collect that all and carry it out to the dumpster?
What about the lunch room? Should we wait 4 hours till the end of the day for whomever's turn it is to stay late (without a raise in salary of course) and clean that up? Or should they do it earlier, while they are teaching?
And what if a toilet clogs during the day? And the paper towels or soap runs out? And what if the toilet overflows? Should a teacher be leaving the class to deal with that because the school doesn't have a janitor on premises?
And let's say the teacher brings her class to the lunchroom, turns on the lights, and a bulb needs replacing? Should the class then go on a field trip and use up 10 minutes of their 20 minute lunch to the supply closet to get a bulb and ladder, and replace it? Or should they be left unattended? I'm wondering.

To me, a school being a functioning place needs someone whose entire block of time is related to the upkeep and maintenance of the school. It doesn't work if it's not the person's priority. I mean, just look at my house...

Jeanette

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 4:51 pm

Since this seems to be a common problem in yeshivos, I wonder where indeed all the money is coming from to pay for the excessive amounts of color copies, booklets, laminating etc that end up in the trash. I know it's probably a minuscule part of the overall budget but still it does not make sense.

LittleDucky

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 6:13 pm

ChutzPAh wrote:

No janitors??!!! Seriously, you want your kids to be on rotation to clean toilets??!!!! You think your kids teachers and rebbies should do it???

Sorry my sarcasm didn't show through. I had suggested the rotation but for parents... Sort of a "if you won't hire them then YOU do it". It's rediculous to not have them. Maybe they can cut down on them by Yes having teachers throw out their own trash can. But get rid of completely? No way...
But there are tons of waste in schools and THAT needs to be stopped. Lights turned off, leaky faucets taken care of, heat at a normal level (wearing a sweater is ok indoors in the winter. But we shouldn't have to wear sweatshirts in the summer and shirts in the winter...). Color copies, lamination, bound books, projects. all.the.time. , prizes for every little thing etc.

amother

Saddlebrown

Thu, Jun 09 2016, 6:26 pm

Yes, schools should eliminate waste wherever they can. (Of course the laminated booklet that you consider a waste of time is some other parent's pride and joy, so it's not entirely straightforward.) Heat and plumbing absolutely should be monitored for savings.

All of this is a distraction from the real issue. It's like saying that a family can't balance the budget because they bought brand name toothpaste instead of generic, without reference to the fact that both parents are unemployed.

Again, look at your school's budget. For the most part, schools are pinching pennies till they squeak.