How do you justify Pesach programs AND tuition assistance???

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, May 04 2016, 9:20 am

groovy1224 wrote:

Are you serious right now? Is this like a belated adar joke? Are you seriously suggesting that EVERY grandparent, parent, generous uncle, fairy godmother, etc. needs to make inquiries as to the tuition status of the recipient before giving a gift? Oh sorry, was going to by you a car but I see you got a tuition discount. Better luck next time. (I'm sure you'll say it only applies to the extravagant gifts. Buy who's the judge of that? You? No thank you). So only very wealthy people can accept help. Gotcha. Makes so much sense.

What you're implying is so ridiculous I can't even fathom you really believe it. Basically anyone with wealthy relatives is not entitled to tuition assistance, regardless of how hard they're trying to make it on their own in the world, unless they reject every gift they are offered. So what if you bust your behind to make as much as you can, but still can't pay your FULL tuition bill? No vacations for you! Parents offered to buy your kids shoes for the summer? Think again! Your grandma wants to take you to a mani pedi and then lunch? Co-workers chipped in and bought you that bassinet you wanted? Your sister won a Chinese raffle for a new sheitl and gave it to you? WELL SHAME ON YOU.

Sorry to be rude, but OP you need to get a grip. Yes, breaking news, people abuse the 'system' sometimes and enjoy daily luxuries while draining community resources. According to imamother statistics like 96% of people who get a tuition break do this. In the real world, most of us are trying to make an honest living, pay as much as we can towards our children's schools, but graciously accept any break at all they can give us. After that, I live my life. If I find five bucks on the street, I don't run to the tuition office. I go get ice cream with my kids. I don't have a sign on my forehead that says 'in lieu of presents please make all checks payable to school x.' I fail to recall the line on the tuition contract that demanded that.

What's a joke here is your reading comprehension.

First, I'm not the OP, so please don't hold her responsible for my views.

Second, I suggested no such thing. Pesach in a hotel, barring extenuating circumstances, is a luxury. For a family to indulge in that particular form of conspicuous consumption while taking money from the tzibbur strikes me as brazenly offensive.

I don't care if someone buys the national brand or the store label. This isn't about shaming people getting tuition breaks. It's about getting our priorities straight so that fewer families need tzedaka in the future.

amother

Cyan

Wed, May 04 2016, 9:37 am

I think people lost a sensitivity to the fact that tuition breaks are affecting other parents, someone is subsidizing your tuition! It should be embarrassing to tell friends that you have a tuition break if you are going to indulge (or have the grandparents indulge) in luxuries such as a pesach hotel or fancy car, etc. I am another person in the boat of thinking that grandparents should contribute to tuition before they splurge on luxuries for their non-tuition paying kids. At the very least, don't advertise that you are getting a tuition break so that threads like this are not started. In some cases people brag about their breaks and it causes resentment for the tuition paying parents that are not wealthy.

amother

Babypink

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:03 am

amother wrote:

I don't get the issue. First of all, if someone is offered it for free from the grandparents they would be idiots to turn it down without a very good reason. No one is offering them cash here.

Second of all tuition boards don't expect you to use every last penny you have on tuition. You are allowed a reasonable amount for living. So you may choose to go hungry for six months to save up for the hotel. That really shouldn't impact your tuition. You are allowed to choose to scrimp in other areas to afford a luxury (no, I'm not suggesting to scrimp on tuition to cover it but suggesting that it's ok to keep your entire food budget and live off rice and potatos year round and use your grocery money for the pesach hotel or something like that). I would think it unreasonable to tell someone to live off that diet to pay more tuition but they still have that choice.

Third there are always variables you wont know about that may cause them to need it. They don't owe you an explanation (unless of course you are on the school board making the decision about their scholarship).

Fourth everyone else is right. Get your mind out of everyone elses finances.

Come on. This is absurd. No one lives in potatoes all year to go on a pesach program in Cabo. Also, I can say what I want here. People that abuse the system make MY tuition higher, and take away resources from those who really need it.

Culturedpearls

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:04 am

Hello? Not all grandparents can physically make Pesach for the extended family.
Going away is their only option.
I have no idea what these hotels cost but everyone knows themselves & what they can pull off physically.
And why does someone need to be terminally ill ? What if it's their only vacation in years ? What if they cannot physically cope with Pesach?
And what about those who run these programs? You think they don't give tzeddoka or pay tuition?
It's their parnossa & their money is part of the communal coffers too.

amother

Babypink

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:08 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

You're right, culturedpearls. The ONLY way to cope with the strain of making Pesach or (!) not going on vacation in years (woe is me) is to drop $25,000 on a luxurious Pesach getaway in Mexico. Rolling Eyes

PinkFridge

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:09 am

seeker wrote:

Great, now this is the part where someone(s) say(s) that it IS their business because these families' tuition discounts are funded out of their hard-working pockets. We have had this conversation already.

OP needs a lot of hugs and endorsement for the hard work she does to honorably pay her kids' tuition, and then try to change her mental channel. If hearing about other's Pesach excesses is unavoidable, try to be compassionate. Patronizing compassion is preferable to bitter condemnation, and better on the blood pressure too.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:12 am

amother wrote:

If the grandparents will pay for a vacation but not tuition, they are making a statement of priorities. And not a very impressive one, either.

Why is it OK to turn to the community but not to your parents in this case? Someone is footing the bill for your child's tuition. Sometimes resources are finite.

ETA: my mind isn't on anyone's finances until their hands are in my pockets.

What seeker said immediately below your post on p. 2.
Also, for many families, it's best for shalom bayis - and I'm dealing with very healthy dynamics here too - if the grandparents' and married children's finances aren't so enmeshed. Expectations should NEVER be made of grandparents by the schools.

amother

Saddlebrown

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:24 am

Culturedpearls wrote:

If the grandparents can't make Pesach, let their kids do it. Hire cleaning help, order food, whatever. We're talking about thousands of dollars here.

And look, there is guy in the neighborhood who owns a Ferrari dealership. Maybe we should all buy luxury cars to give him a parnassa?

amother

Ginger

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:30 am

Last year, a friend and I were talking about sending our children to a particular school. Mine was going into the pre-school class, hers into second grade. The fees for pre-school are very low and everyone has to pay full fees. There is no free option here for pre school, so everyone is paying anyway.

I told my friend that we will be sending our children to public school for grade school because we can't afford the fees, even though they're extremely reasonable because they are subsidised. She replied "LOL, no one pays the full fees, especially if the mother isn't working!"

It never occurred to me to ask for a tuition break. We are on a tight budget, but maybe we could re-arrange things so that we could afford the fees (I haven't done the math) but that would only be for one child, we for sure couldn't do it for others and I feel uncomfortable about this idea of getting a break if the mother doesn't work because why should someone get a luxury item (private school) if they don't work to earn the money to pay for it? I know that some women in my child's class are working just to pay the school fees and have limited their family size to 2 to make this possible. I also know that they are sad to miss out on things at school, or be unable to take or collect their child because they are at work. I'd be pretty annoyed if I was in their shoes and found out that other people were getting a tuition break because the woman decided to stay home!

Back to my friend, she has just spent 2 weeks in a hotel for pesach (and a holiday.) She was spending the chagim with friends, so probably did not have to pay for the sederim and possibly other yom tov meals as well, but would have had food expenses the rest of the time. I know that she and her husband are not in touch with one set of parents, and the other set do not live in the same country or know the people they spent pesach with, so it was not one of those situations where grandparents were paying to have all the kids together.

Perhaps there is some other explanation or perhaps there's not. Either way, it's none of my business, but what it does do is make me question what I'm doing here in the frum community (I didn't grow up frum) because in spite of my husband B"H having a good job, I just can't integrate in the community due to not having the resources to pay for babysitting or cleaning help like everyone else does. Consequently, I am very isolated.

PinkFridge

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:31 am

amother wrote:

Let's say that there are no kids near where the grandparents live. Someone should take off work for a week or two to make Pesach?
I may have missed something but did anyone say to patronize Pesach programs to give the people running them parnasa?

amother

Babypink

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:32 am

PinkFridge wrote:

Agree with the first statement. some schools are starting to step in, though, and see what the family resources are before offering financial aid. People are making all kinds of stupid excuses here and justifying paying for a Pesach vacation while accepting financial aid, but barring extenuating circumstances (which are very rare), financial aid should be reserved for people who are struggling to pay tuition WITHOUT budgeting for luxuries.

amother

Pearl

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:32 am

Lani22 wrote:

I think everyone is missing op's point. She's not talking about grandparents paying for a pesach hotel or any extenuating circumstances. She's saying if you pay for yourself and your family to go to a hotel for pesach bc its easier and more fun then staying home and making pesach then you should not be receiving tuition assistance. I agree 1000%.

No, we're not missing the point. No one, short of an actual sociopath, actually thinks it's OK to take tuition assistance and then pay for a hotel yourself. So then we point out to the op that there are all sorts of reasons why it's not wrong if someone else is paying, and she agrees with many of those reasons, but the point is, you see someone going to a hotel, you have no way of knowing if they fall under an "acceptable category" (and as an aside, how do you know who's getting assistance? Here in Imamother land, all these shyster scholarship parents are bragging about their great deal to their chump tuition paying friends, but as a full tuition paying parent, I have never encountered this and have no idea who my outrageous tuition is subsidizing). And while I suppose it's fair to question the spending of those taking assistance, by what right do you questions the spending of their extended families? Here's another scenario that no one brought up: my ILs aren't frum, but they observe Pesach is some capacity. They want to spend Pesach with the entire family, but the frum grandchildren can't eat in their home and the grandchildren don't have room for the entire extended family. Since they aren't frum, they aren't interested in helping with yeshiva tuition, so no, they're not going to give you the cash value to pay tuition and it's not a matter of "skewed priority" because to them, yeshiva is no priority at all. If at some point I ever find myself on scholarship, that's it, my husband can never spend Pesach with his family again? Absurd.
Lastly, at a certain point, this is all such a futile exercise. Yes, some people abuse the system, and if caught, there should be consequences. But no matter how ironclad a system you build, somebody is going to find and exploit a loophole. At a certain point, it costs more (both in money and in other ways) to smoke out and punish every cheater than it does to just accept that sometimes people get away with stuff in this world, and we will have to leave it to Hashem to deal with in the next. I'm a full tuition payer and I absolutely agree that we need to do what we can to promote efficiency and cut waste, but there's only so much you can do. I'm not going to raise my blood pressure every time someone slips through the cracks and I'm not going to waste my energy counting other people's money and playing God pretending I know everything that goes on in other families on the off chance that I might catch an extra cheater.

Culturedpearls

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:37 am

amother wrote:

As I said I have no idea what it costs but if grandparents can swing the $25k then it's their right. And if they typically spend $5k a year on vacation & forgo for 5 years...
For goodness sakes it's their business!!!
They worked for their money let them enjoy it & everyone should stop being plain jealous.
Again I've never been & never will go to a hotel for Pesach but for those who can let them enjoy!

Culturedpearls

Wed, May 04 2016, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

Very funny but that's not the point. Someone brought up communal funds.
Hence my point.
And do you know how hard it is to make Pesach for say 30 people? All under one roof getting in each other's way?
Maybe you can do it but many of us grandparents cannot! And we've worked hard & paid our tuition so don't tell us how to make Pesach !!!
It's not like we stole the money we earned it & we can decide what to do with it!! And if I want that Ferrari well I have every right to it!

HonesttoGod

Wed, May 04 2016, 11:06 am

I agree with seeker here.
I mean get your noses out of other people purses. And then expect the grandparents to pay tuition before taking them away for Pesach? There are not enough eyeroll emojis in the world!
Parents have done their share of tuition and cleaning and cooking for their kids. They should NEVER be expected to do it for the grandkids much less pay for it?! They are there to indulge and spoil their grandkids and if they choose to do so by taking the family away for pesach, GOOD ON THEM!!

Spinning this around to me, tuition and vacation is two different pieces of the puzzle.
I have a budget. Tuition, rent etc is included in that budget. I also have a saving fund for vacations. I don't touch that for anything BUT vacation (and wardrobe, shoes etc that I want for vacation). If I choose to use it that is MY budget for MY vacation and NOTHING ELSE. It is the only way I survive knowing I am saving for one thing that is just for me. But money doesn't go into the savings until EVERYTHING else is paid on my household/regular budget. So if the school looked at my income and decided they can give me a tuition deduction (and I would never ever ask, I just can't ask for money off. anything. ever) then that would be great and I would pay the amount they ask me to, but that has nothing to do with my vacation budget.