Supporting married children

amother

Gold

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:12 am

amother wrote:

Really? You feel that you need to live where they want you to?

Of course. If my parents are buying me a house, they will buy the house they choose. I know plenty of people who's parents pay for the house and they choose where to buy. If they are paying my child's tuition, they get to tell me where to send them and can veto a school they don't want me to send them to. If I am paying these expenses, my husband and I can choose freely where we are going to live, what school we are going to send to etc. without the supporters input. And that's just one reason of many that I would hate to rely on someone else's money.

amother

Brunette

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:31 am

amother wrote:

Here's a slightly different angle to this issue.

I'm already part of the next generation - the children of the long term kollel families.

We've seen both the positive and negative effects of kollel, and there is no money to support us - not a penny. And we don't expect it.

We've been educated in Bais Yaakov for years and years about kollel, but this what I, and many of my peers, saw at home -

We saw that while our fathers were sitting in kollel, enjoying intellectual stimulation and acknowledgment, putting out seforim and giving shiurim, our mothers were silently and quietly working themselves to the bone and beyond, having babies year after year, not even allowing themselves to ask their husbands to help them bein hazmanim because of 'bitul Torah', not being allowed to receive recognition for their professional lives because women are supposed to only have jobs, not a career, being told time and time again through shiurim and articles and the entire system that their entire worth depended on their husband's learning, and that their many accomplishments were only worth something if it helped their husbands' learning.

Then their children grew up, and with all the praise about kollel, no one wanted to marry them, because there was no money to give in support. Our grandparents aren't exactly supporting us, you know.

Not just that, we know exactly how much sacrifice kollel entails - the times when there is just no money, no breathing space, the pressure, the tension, even if we did manage to wing it through the month, the stress definitely leaves an impact.

I did not want to marry a kollel boy. My parents were devastated. To tell you the honest truth, it was very hard for me to consider marrying someone who would work - it really was considered subpar in our family.

Bottom line is - this system is not sustainable. It can work for one generation, it might tenuously stretch itself thin to work for the next generation - but at a certain point, it snaps.

I think that instead of raising our children to think and believe that kollel is the standard, the norm, the ideal and the expected, we need to start talking about how to build Torah homes and families even without learning all day.

I went to a chassidish school. Most girls in my grade married boys who were in kollel for at least a year or two and then went to work. Only one girl in my grade had a father that was in kollel and she and all of her sisters married boys who were already working when they got married. I assume they didn't have a very easy life with a father who was in kollel full time.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:50 am

amother wrote:

I went to BY and to seminary and never understood or bought into the idea of marrying a learning boy. Almost my whole class wanted to marry learning boys, but the more I heard about it and questioned the teachers and asked them to explain it, the less appealing it seemed to me. My parents made it clear they weren't going to give me money for anything and I wasn't interested in working like a slave for something I didn't even understand the point of. And I still don't get it. Why can't somebody be a Ben Torah and learn in their spare time? Learning is important, but who says it has to consume your entire day and week? As a woman, I know it's very possible to multi task and a man can learn and work and even do more than that. I still don't see how it's ok to learn on sombody else's dollar or at your wife's expense. I came to this conclusion on my own, early on, when everybody around was preaching to marry a learning boy. Yes, the system is partly to blame, but anyone who actually questions it and thinks it through should be able to realize that it's not sustainable (with the exception of someone so rich that they have enough savings to live on for their whole lives).
.

http://www.jewishmediaresource.....-suis

If anyone can find the original Hamodia article on line, please, please send me a link. I very much regret not saving it.

In Pirkei Avos we read that every Jew has his/her chelek in Torah. Whether it's full-time learning or not, everyone should have a vibrant connection to Torah. It's an investment regardless of it's 9-5 or 5-9. And I speak for many women: I remember the crunch years when I needed more of my husband's help and he couldn't always daven at his preferred minyan, or keep a chavrusa. (And it's also called parenting and being there: a father should be around and my have to cut back at certain times in life.) But we always knew that the goal was to maximize his learning, even after the f/t kollel days. As the link above shows, this too can take heroics and is an admirable goal. Maybe not for everyone, but I urge people not to shortchange themselves and their families.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:53 am

amother wrote:

What is also very, very hard for many people is the fact that THIS is what was taught as the entire basis of our spirituality.

Our role was to become kollel wives.

Of course we were also taught the importance of tefillah and tznius (of course!), but all that was accessory to our role as kollel wives and mothers.

And when you realize that it's not working out - or in my case, before marriage, that it wouldn't work for me - it is so hard to clean out all the messages, lessons and expectations that were driven into you from when you were young. To realize that serving Hashem doesn't mean that everyone who wasn't in kollel is inferior. That a Mr. isn't less worthy than a Rabbi.

And I think this is a serious shortcoming in our schools. It's time to get the blinders off.

And it's also important to telegraph that the same person may be a Rabbi and a Mr. at different stages of life. A mailing-list-kollel-avrech Rabbi, and a few or more years later, a Mr. If a person's doing what he is supposed to at each stage in life, he is living a lechatchila life, every moment of that life.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:58 am

amother wrote:

I'm confused about your confusion. All of us here who've posted have seen reality. I guess it's too bad we didn't read this website when we were growing up.

I wanted to ask you to pm me. And I considered doing this amother but I'll go out on a limb here.
We spoke to an odom gadol once about the bind we were in after kollel and he stressed NOT, EVER, to regret a moment spent in kollel. This is the proverbial soton me'achareinu. It might be hard not to be bitter, and go ahead and share your experience with others as a cautionary tale, but cherish what you had, how it set the tone in many ways for the years that came after, and the good intentions that led you in that direction.

And this is a long-term picture but it is possible that you will see tremendous bracha in other arenas of life and maybe, just maybe some of them will obviously be direct results of the earlier decisions in life. The script might not play out exactly as we write it but we have an ultimate Screenwriter who does the final edits and we might be pleasantly surprised.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

This is EXACTLY my situation. And I don't want my kids to be in kollel or girls to marry guys in kollel. But DH, who has such a relaxing life of no responsibility would never hear of it. What do you do in that situation? I have time 'til shidduchim & but I would never recommend this life style to my children. It has almost made me OTD & when I spoke to a rebbetzin I know, she told me that many other kollel wives have said the same thing. THIS HAS TO STOP!!

And what has to begin - again - is the husbands of the rebbetzins, and the mashgichim, forming relationships with the talmidim to be able to be madrich them al pi darkom, as individuals who are part of the community of klal Yisrael. (Reminds me of something Shira Smiles said, in her current parshas Kedoshim shiur. I don't remember who she quoted but the fault of the talmidim of Rabbi Akiva was seeing each other as part of the same whole rather than as individuals. There is a balance between being part of a klal and not constructive herd mentality.)

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:08 pm

amother wrote:

Could this situation be a case of עבירה גוררת עבירה
The father didn't fulfill the mandate to teach his son a trade, so now the son doesn't fulfill the obligation I the kesuba to support his wife.
Isn't this relatively new reformation of judaism not a breach of halacha and mesorah?

As I've said before, there's also the chinuch mandate of "chanoch l'naar al pi darko."

ETA: Thanks Chayalle (whose post is below this one).
Now that I'm caught up I see others got there. See amother mustard on p. 5 and others who made the same points I did on my posts these last 2 pages. I'll let them stand as they are.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Mon, May 09 2016, 12:15 pm; edited 1 time in total

Chayalle

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:12 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I love this post.

And want to say that I do feel there's tremendous value starting off married life in Kollel - even short term. Like you say, it sets the tone for years to come.

sourstix

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:13 pm

[quote="PinkFridge"]I wanted to ask you to pm me. And I considered doing this amother but I'll go out on a limb here.
We spoke to an odom gadol once about the bind we were in after kollel and he stressed NOT, EVER, to regret a moment spent in kollel. This is the proverbial soton me'achareinu. It might be hard not to be bitter, and go ahead and share your experience with others as a cautionary tale, but cherish what you had, how it set the tone in many ways for the years that came after, and the good intentions that led you in that direction.

And this is a long-term picture but it is possible that you will see tremendous bracha in other arenas of life and maybe, just maybe some of them will obviously be direct results of the earlier decisions in life. The script might not play out exactly as we write it but we have an ultimate Screenwriter who does the final edits and we might be pleasantly surprised.[/quote]

[b]I couldnt like this enough!!! thanks pinkfridge. beautiful!! kudos to you for explaining it so well. I couldnt write and explain as well. thanks again[/b]

Last edited by sourstix on Mon, May 09 2016, 12:22 pm; edited 1 time in total

5mom

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:19 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

I'm not sure that's going to be so easy. I assume that these rebbeim are wonderful men who want only the best for their talmidim. But they are not necessarily in the best position to move people along. First, though they hear the anguish of others, they are often insulated from the reality because their children marry into rich baalebatish families. (And maybe they, as top boys, got rich in-laws themselves.)

Second, self interest. (Yes, it affects everyone from the Kohen Gadol to the Sanhedrin and on down. Chazal knew it, we should acknowledge it too.) A rosh yeshiva gets his livelihood and his kavod from having many talmidim. It takes an extraordinary person to put himself out of business for the good of klal yisrael.

I think that if people really want a change - and I am not sure that they do - this is going to have to be a grassroots movement. Just my thoughts, but I admit that I am looking in from the outside.

sourstix

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:21 pm

I envy the ones who are able to have husbands starting out learning. I couldnt do it. but I look up to those who can. first its important to know what you can.

in my first marriage I did it. it didnt work out. I am truly not cut out for this. I gave in realizing it wasnt gonna go. having a husband learn is something you need to know if you can. and I made that mistake without thinking too much. I just jumped in I was young and naive. I didnt grow up this way so I had no idea what its like to be the breadwinner and run a home. I didnt know how to eat it.

I dont regret it. that marriage didnt work out for other reasons. it was bashert. it had to be this way. but I still get schar for trying.

amother

Pearl

Mon, May 09 2016, 1:10 pm

My kids are still on the youngish side (not yet in High school).
But I have a few nieces who are married and in upper high school grades - in Lakewood.
I've helped some out with economic project in school. They have to figure out how much life costs and budget - housing, food, clothing, etc.
Did I misunderstand the project, I was glad that it existed.

I was just discussing with DH a nephew of ours who is getting engaged - he has zero concept of life and expenses. I was trying to figure out with DH how we prevent this from happening to your children, while still protecting them from life and keeping it age appropriate)

saw50st8

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:27 pm

Chayalle wrote:

I love this post.

And want to say that I do feel there's tremendous value starting off married life in Kollel - even short term. Like you say, it sets the tone for years to come.

I think it's a shame that the kollel world is less open to learning a trade part time while in Kollel. After a certain amount of time (let's say one year), the men would start taking classes or getting career training. Even if they go at it slowly and it takes a few years, it would make the exit strategy from Kollel less painful on their families, while still allowing them to learn a lot. It would make Kollel much more sustainable in the long term and less of a burden on women.

My husband got his masters while we had 1 child. I can't imagine him going to classes now that we have 4. I know people do it, but it's significantly harder in most cases.

amother

Hotpink

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:34 pm

mommy3b2c wrote:

I don't know. I see gold21's point. I also went to BY schools. I barely remember them preaching about kollel, but one thing is for sure. I KNEW I didn't want a long term learner.

1) I knew I liked nice things and spending money, so obviously I needed to marry someone who would make money and could provide me with those things.

2) I was not at all yeshivish. I dressed trendy, watched movies, etc... I wasn't ready to stop doing those things, so why would I want a long term learner?

I admit, I don't come from a yeshivish family, but.... It's hard for me to believe that everyone is stupid enough to think that they can live with no money.

(And it's not like I knew about how much things cost, because my parents paid for everything until I got married, and quite a bit past marriage too.)

'
I know it's hard to believe but not everyone is you. There are people who are willing to sacrifice nice things for husband learning. to sacrifice money for torah. You don't sound like a long term learning type in any way. But different people are different. It's not right or wrong. What's right for one is not right for another.

There are thousands and thousands of kollel families. Many of them are very intelligent people who possess remarkable critical thinking skills. They are not all making a mistake. Far from it. There are many phenomenal reasons for a husband to learn in kollel as long as he can. Many gedolim strongly back this and we can't grasp the effect of this learning.

Obviously you have to be realistic too, but many are making it and many are realistic about when to start working if necessary.

amother

Puce

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:39 pm

amother wrote:

Can I just chime in that its not always kids feeling entitled that makes it necessary for parents to support them.
My dhs parents put him through the yeshiva system, never encouraged him to become educated at all and always just spoke to him about his wellbeing in learning, not his personal development. He knew they wanted him in kollel and since he's always followed 'the system' he continued to do so.
His parents gave us a little money to support us and then suddenly sprung on him
'You need to support your wife and kids!'
They didn't bring up an independent child- they brought him up to lean on them.
So now when he can't lean on them and needs some time to get himself together (and rightfully so!), he leans on his already overworked , postpartum wife.
He's a great guy and a great father dont get me wrong. But if all you drum into your kids in Torah, Torah, Torah and aren't down to earth and practical then yes, they will end up unsustainable.
From someone who s seen the worst side of 'kollel'

You described very well in a few paragraphs one of the vices of the Kollel lifestyle that has brought destruction to the Klal. But you cant blame the parents. When you live in certain communities if youre kids dont stay in learning after marriage they wont do a good Shidduch, all known CLEARLY by the biggest Rebbes abd Rabbonim.

To quote someone who hates it all and just wants to be plain frum, "The Kollel lifestyle is a business for many Yeshiva-owning families".