Supporting married children

dancingqueen

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:45 pm

amother wrote:

This is EXACTLY my situation. And I don't want my kids to be in kollel or girls to marry guys in kollel. But DH, who has such a relaxing life of no responsibility would never hear of it. What do you do in that situation? I have time 'til shidduchim & but I would never recommend this life style to my children. It has almost made me OTD & when I spoke to a rebbetzin I know, she told me that many other kollel wives have said the same thing. THIS HAS TO STOP!!

Does your dh know how you feel? Do rabbis really recommend that men stay in kollel at the expense of their wives truly reaching their breaking points like this? Imo there should be a test after 2? years of kollel where a guy has to prove his excellence In order to keep going full time. In every other field there is performance review.

mommy3b2c

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:46 pm

amother wrote:

'
I know it's hard to believe but not everyone is you. There are people who are willing to sacrifice nice things for husband learning. to sacrifice money for torah. You don't sound like a long term learning type in any way. But different people are different. It's not right or wrong. What's right for one is not right for another.

There are thousands and thousands of kollel families. Many of them are very intelligent people who possess remarkable critical thinking skills. They are not all making a mistake. Far from it. There are many phenomenal reasons for a husband to learn in kollel as long as he can. Many gedolim strongly back this and we can't grasp the effect of this learning.

Obviously you have to be realistic too, but many are making it and many are realistic about when to start working if necessary.

You response has nothing to do with what I said. If you want to sacrifice, or have wealthy parents, or get a degree and support your husband..... That's all wonderful and fine. What's not fine, is making the decision to marry a long term learner, and thinking money will fall from the sky. If you're willing to sacrifice, go for it ! I have great admiration for you. If your not willing to sacrifice, you need a plan.

gold21

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:27 pm

amother wrote:

Ok, so heres an example of thoughts I may have had when I was high school age:

Why should davka my husband sit and learn and be supported by my parents? Yes, learning Torah is valuable, but clearly money is needed to function in life. The truth is, my father is an amazing learner BH and maybe he should sit and learn once his kids are all grown? Why should he be saddled with the finances of young families instead of sitting and learning himself?

Why should I work out of the house to support my husband learning if I am strongly in favor of the stay-at-home mom philosphy? Isnt being a stay-at-home mom a value in and of itself, and in many ways a sacrifice in and of itself?

Can u answer these questions? I couldn't. When things dont add up, they dont add up. Its not about who is willing to make sacrifices for Torah and who isnt.

Please dont make this about being smart vs not being smart. Some people tend to be more accepting of different ideas and some less so; this has nothing to do with intelligence at all. There are plenty of brilliant people who are accepting of what they are taught in school, and plenty of less-intelligent people who are more cynical. Its a personality thing, not a comparison of whose IQ is higher... come on now. If you think I come on Imamother to espouse my brilliance, you are mistaken. Actually, my very intelligent sister KA"H was more pro-kollel than me.

Chayalle

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:40 pm

gold21 wrote:

Why should I work out of the house to support my husband learning if I am strongly in favor of the stay-at-home mom philosphy? Isnt being a stay-at-home mom a value in and of itself, and in many ways a sacrifice in and of itself?

Can u answer these questions? I couldn't. When things dont add up, they dont add up. Its not about who is willing to make sacrifices for Torah and who isnt.

You know, this was one of my biggest struggles/opposition to the Kollel lifestyle. When I was in 12th grade, during a class discussion I told a teacher that I want to be a SAHM and raise my kids myself. For some reason, she took this as a personal affront (I never said anything about her, only about ME, and I was really asking and wanting a serious answer) and nearly kicked me out of the room. Then she tried to convince me that her kids are actually better off because they go to a marvelous babysitter who is warm and loving and spends time putting them on the swings. I kid you not.

I never really got an answer to my questions, but ended up marrying my DH and supporting the Kollel lifestyle. However I truly do believe that Hashem leads you on the path you really want. For most of my child-raising years I've been able to work from home and minimize the time my kids spend at the babysitter.

Because my kids are a sacrifice I'm NOT willing to make.

Chayalle

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:48 pm

saw50st8 wrote:

I think it's a shame that the kollel world is less open to learning a trade part time while in Kollel. After a certain amount of time (let's say one year), the men would start taking classes or getting career training. Even if they go at it slowly and it takes a few years, it would make the exit strategy from Kollel less painful on their families, while still allowing them to learn a lot. It would make Kollel much more sustainable in the long term and less of a burden on women.

My husband got his masters while we had 1 child. I can't imagine him going to classes now that we have 4. I know people do it, but it's significantly harder in most cases.

I do hear this. My own father was learning more than part time for the first two years of his marriage to my mother, while at the same time pursuing his masters in Engineering. In this way, he was able to transition to the working world by the time the family needs required it.

However not everyone is my father (who could, after that, get up at 5:30 a.m. for Daf Yomi before putting in a full days work, come home and help out with bedtime, learn with my brothers, and still put in two hours of learning before going to bed.....) and for many young men, their learning would not be of the same caliber if they started career training very early on in marriage.

I have a nephew who is a working boy in his upper 20's who is making a Siyum on Shas this week (shoutout and Mazal Tov to the family!!!! I don't know many Kollel boys who achieve this!) and another nephew (other side) who is well on his way, constantly Kovea Itim while also working to support his family.

OTOH I will also say that I see working men in my extended family who rarely attend a shiur or make regular time to learn. Which is why I hear both sides, with Gedolim who push starting off with serious, quality learning without any other focus. If you don't train in this when young, then it is hard to make it a part of your life.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 7:52 pm

amother wrote:

I'm with you in being pro-kollel.
But as far as many gedolim backing it, yes, very true. (And I won't bring up http://www.cross-currents.com/.....phor/ . Hard to believe it's 8 years old.)

But as I've said, we - parents, mashpi'im, etc. - have to help the families as individual families figure out what's best for them, no guilt involved.
I'm not totally sure if we speak the same language, though. In my day, which I strongly suspect was closer to your parents' day than yours, we didn't use the term "long-term." People stayed as long as they lasted. This might have been due to support, the wife's job, exceptional hashgacha, a Zevulun outside the family, or any combination thereof. We didn't take for granted that someone could stay in learning for 3 or 5 or 10 years. You took it as it came. Though maybe this isn't totally true. Support was starting to be the norm, but not expected or as widely demanded in my time.

imorethanamother

Mon, May 09 2016, 8:27 pm

Quote:

Gold amother you answered your own question. The difference between you and everyone else is that your parents told you
That they won't support you. My parents promised support. Of course if my parents didn't then I never would have married a kollel boy but my parents promised support and forced it on me. If your parents gave you 10 million dollars in a bank account to marry a learning boy would you have still said it doesn't make sense.

I still don't understand this. Let's say that your parents actually did promise support. Did you live in your parents' house? Did you think to yourself, "Wow! They have a lot of extra money!" If so, then you could be forgiven for believing that you'd never have to worry about finances ever. If you can remember budgets or being frugal, then I'm not sure where this blank check fantasy came from.

I don't think you're wrong. I think that the yeshiva system infantilizes children, and it works in their favor. It prevents people from meandering from their set philosophy. And it worked to keep you in the dark until things - financially - got very hard. However, at some point we all have to accept blame for our own shortcomings, and we have to grow up and stop blaming our parents.

And finally, I'm seeing a lot of comments all hand-wringing and "WHAT DO WE DO?" How about we all collectively make our sons get college credits in high school and go to college instead of endless years in bais medrash and get jobs working in the summer?

amother

Mustard

Mon, May 09 2016, 8:55 pm

imorethanamother wrote:

Quote:

How do you force your 21 year old son to do that? Cut off support make them go without, kill your relationship because you changed tunes with what their Rabbeim say.

amother

Tangerine

Mon, May 09 2016, 9:06 pm

The idea of boys being "trained" in s.t before marriage was actually discussed in detail in a mag article in which several roshei yeshiva were interviewed. They all said that plan was not feasible because it would completely distract the boys from learning....

In any case, there are lots of jobs men can train for which don't necessitate going to full-time college but can be learnt through night classes or the like in under a yr like accounting, real estate, mortgaging, graphics and programming to name a few.

(I know this is from pages ago but as the poster was bashing my own post, I feel compelled to respond. Very Happy

)

When I said a man doesn't have to consider babysitting when job searching that is obviously after he is leaving kollel. Its all nice and dandy for you that your dh was your glorified babysitter when he was in kollel. Now that he is leaving, welcome to the real world, hun. No more dh to call when your kid has a fever of 102 and you used up all your sick days. No more dh staying home with the kids whenever they have an off day. No more coming home early and helping out with mornings after you have a baby. Unless his job is very flexible, most of these will now fall on you.
Once he is out of kollel, no, he will not necessarily consider babysitter costs when job-searching. He may even (gasp) commute. Sry, but as much as the world might have you believe men and women are equal, we ask know they're not. So yes, you do have to factor in your kids when making a job decision in ways your dh may not.

And for the poster above questioning why her father should support and dh learn and not the opposite, there are 2 reasons for this. They may not satisfy you but this is it... One of the main goals of starting a marriage in kollel is just that- to start off the marriage. Learning is always wonderful but the idea is tht the immersion in full time learning at this crucial point in one's life will stay with them throughout their life and have an everlasting effect on their homes.

And as so many ppl are pointing out, hopefully when one is in his fifties, his earning potential is vastly greater than a 22 yr old's...

amother

Ruby

Mon, May 09 2016, 10:06 pm

amother wrote:

There are so many things in your post I'd like to talk about, but I'll just start with this:

-Why are you assuming that now that he has a real job, every single time one of the kids fall sick, the wife now has to even use up all her sick days to stay home? I have news for you. There are many couples who take turns. Because guess what? It's his kids too. You are putting an unfair burden on the woman.

-Second of all, the problem with many of these certification courses is: They tend to become flooded quickly, because there are so many men straight out of kollel who are now doing it. There are limited options - what if one is not suited to become a programmer or designer or electrician? And - what happens when one invests thousands of dollars in such a course and realizes in middle that it's not for him? He's cash-strapped and needs a job quick, but some things are impossible to know before investing heavily in these course. What does he do now?

amother

Indigo

Mon, May 09 2016, 10:40 pm

amother wrote:

oh my, did I write this?
word for word my life.

I tell dh though, that the mother is usually the one involved with shidduchim (at least for the daughters) and I will just make sure to say no to any long term learners. I know, sounds simpler than it probably will be in real life...Still have a while.

imorethanamother

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:02 pm

amother wrote:

How do you force your 21 year old son to do that? Cut off support make them go without, kill your relationship because you changed tunes with what their Rabbeim say.

Are you joking? The only way is to just let your 21 year old do whatever he wants? Telling him he has responsibilities is "killing your relationship"? Let the Rabbis take him in and support him forever, see how far that gets him. Meanwhile, he has to apply to college (four years ago) NOW.

amother

Indigo

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:02 pm

Another kollel wife who is ready to do away with this system and dispose it in the nearest sanitation dump.

Though I seem to be the only one (maybe copper amother touched on it also) whose dh is not on the same page. My husband sounds like all your BY teachers and rebbeim. have emunah...bitachon.. the money will come...money is not important (??!!)....Torah is the only thing...yada yada.

I don't have anyone to talk to this about, it's so so hard. I hate this lifestyle.

Also, feel different than most posters here because my parents were not even for this lifestyle. They were so not pushing it. In fact, though they werent actively against it, they did try to show me how hard it is and that it's not what I'm used to. Their words fell on deaf ears, I was too soon out of seminary to let it penetrate. I really believed it would work.

The biggest problem is that I'm all alone and feel so jealous of all you ex kollel wives who at least have husbands with sechel who eventually realized it's not working. I know it's hard for you with no income and all that, but I don't see that ever happeneing here..
And honestly I know this sounds bad but aside from the money issue, I'm sometimes just like disgusted with the whole system. I'm actually embarassed to tell people dh is in kollel. it's like he's not an adult. all he does it sit and learn all day. I don't know to me it sounds so odd. Like what's wrong with him?

just my ramblings..take what you want from it.

amother

Gold

Mon, May 09 2016, 11:03 pm

amother wrote:

How do you force your 21 year old son to do that? Cut off support make them go without, kill your relationship because you changed tunes with what their Rabbeim say.

I don't see why you would be killing your relationship. What do parents who don't have the money do? What do the rabbeim say to parents who can't even afford their own expenses, let alone support multiple children? If you're already supporting him, you probably can't cut off all support at once. You'd have to have a talk with him and give him a budget and do it gradually till he finds his own job.
unless of course, you have the money and are willing to continue to support him for years to come. In that case, if it's you and your sons wish for him learn full time for years, continue the support because it seems like you want to anyway. If you decide to do the latter, I hope you teach him that he is blessed and fortunate and not to have that attitude that you are obligated to support him. That's the attitude that really turns me off from the learning lifestyle as well.
I personally would teach him the valuable skill of taking care of his own finances and being a responsible independent adult even if I had the money.

amother

Babypink

Tue, May 10 2016, 12:21 am

One more point that hasn't been made: No one knows what it is like to mother until it happens to them. I know for me, even though I planned on "supporting my husband in kollel," once I had children I had/wanted to be with them. [I say had because one child is very messed up and his therapist says I need to be with him pretty much 24/7 for the time being, and "wanted", because I didn't know how much I would love my children and mothering and want to be a SAHM]

This is another flaw--that the mothers really have to be working full time to be making substantial income. And this is a population that generally has many children close together. How is this fair to the children? Tatty learns all day [They serious kollel guys I know are only home for an hour at lunch and a half hour at dinner and then they are out until 11 PM], Mommy works till 5, then has to grocery shop or go to a doctor appointment, and she comes home when the kids are almost ready for bed.The kids are raised by babysitters? Is that what Hashem wants of us?!
Most kollel couples start out thinking there are three partners: the parents, the husbands minimal stipend, and the wife's salary. If the wife begs off, understandably, and the husband is now 30 or even 40 and doesn't have any secular education beyond 8th grade, it is a real problem.

The thing is, [and people have said this] I don't get why the schools are not saying this [now obvious] point! And seminary girls see their older siblings being supported and the wives have "pretend jobs" [selling tights out of the house or making sushi...] and they seem to be liking their lives.

The reason there is no quick solutions, though, is that Torah learning and kollel really IS a beautiful way of life that people want to follow. If no one learns extensively in kollel, we will not have the chance of producing the next generation of gedolim. So is the only way to become a gadol if your father is rich? Why can't someone who loves learning and has potential do what his neshama is directing him to?
Money is an unfair reality and a sick curse to Adam.
As a seminary teacher of mine said, "you can get a bacelors in klala, you can get a masters in klala, you can get a PHD in klala, but know that it is a klala."

I wouldnt be able to support my children in kollel as things stand now, but if I had tons of money, I would give it to my children in a second. I do believe in full time learning and think it is the ideal for the serious learners. There is nothing good about forcing a future gadol to become an accountant just for the sake of "being responsible"

amother

Burlywood

Tue, May 10 2016, 12:48 am

I see that a lot of people believe that starting off marriage while in kollel is ideal. I can understand that in terms of spending lots of time together as a new couple but honestly if a couple is supported they can do that regardless of kollel . So what's so beautiful about kollel in the beginning of marrige? Personally we weren't able to and didn't want to (take money from parents in order to) start off like this but we would love to make enough money to be able to be a kollel family when we are older...dh loves learning and I appreciate learning .
When we first got married we barely saw each other - we were so busy with school and work. But guess what - we cherished every minute we spent together and even now , 10 years later, we feel this way because we got used to not taking our time together for granted . Isn't that a great way to start marrige ?

Jeanette

Tue, May 10 2016, 7:14 am

amother wrote:

I wouldnt be able to support my children in kollel as things stand now, but if I had tons of money, I would give it to my children in a second. I do believe in full time learning and think it is the ideal for the serious learners. There is nothing good about forcing a future gadol to become an accountant just for the sake of "being responsible"

Funny you should say this because the tannaim and Amorim worked, some at very menial jobs, and it didn't seem to stop them. Where is your evidence that only those supported by rich in laws became gedolim?

It's also sad to build a whole system out of creating "gedolim" when very few can reach that level. The reality is that for all the wife's sacrifice, in most cases her husbands accomplishments in learning aren't that impressive, considering that he had no other responsibilities.

amother

Powderblue

Tue, May 10 2016, 7:19 am

Another point not brought up is that many kollel couples live on government programs and that is the ideal life and not the fall back plan. Programs should only be used for necessity and a person shouldn't plan to be on it but here they are taught as young Bochorim at 18 to apply for hud already so by the time they are married they will qualify.

Also many long term kollel wives told me that their husbands job is to be on programs and be on top of each program that they don't make too much or too little and how much to report to each program. Many of these wives are teachers and tutor on the side taking cash only and of course all that is not reported. Why is that okay to lie for programs? I know the rabbobim here say better to go to a yid but seriously how does a real learning boy justify lying? And not everyone does but a lot do.

saw50st8

Tue, May 10 2016, 7:28 am

Chayalle wrote:

My working husband gets up at 5:30 am for a regular day, gets the kids off to school, works a full day and often comes home at 9-10 pm. I think people assume they aren't capable of that when most people are. I also think you might be being harsh on the working men you know who don't go to shiurim or learn much. My husband used to have a daily chavrusa, but real life kicks in and he doesn't have time for it (he listens to shiurim while commuting which many men you know may also do even if you don't see it, or they learn during their lunch break or whatnot).

I hear the point about training, but there are ways to accomplish that WHILE still going for something. Also, "working" and "leaving kollel" shouldn't be dirty words. No one should look down on people who leave kollel, and I know that happens. Make the kollel model sustainable, because right now it isn't.