Supporting married children

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observer

Fri, May 06 2016, 3:02 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly well said. And good for you for bringing up your kids responsibly.
And some kollel people have no qualms about shnorring (cuz I'm in kollel) and then say 'well it's all from Hashem!'
This topic is one of my biggest pet peeves

Don't know which kollel people you know, but I am a kollel wife and we don't "shnorr" or want others to support us.

We b'h support ourselves, mainly with my job, plus a couple of other small things on the side.

Most of my and dh's siblings are in kollel as well as many of our friends, and none of them are of that mentality.

amother

Gold

Fri, May 06 2016, 4:41 pm

My hope is to raise my children to take responsibility for their own finances. I want to encourage them to become independent and teach them the value of having a work ethic. This is part of taking care of your children: helping them develop the skills to become well adjusted, responsible, independent adults. If I see they are putting in the effort and they still need some financial support, I would probably help out if I have the means to. You take care of your children up until a certain point at which they become adults and Are expected to start taking care of themselves and eventually young children of their own.

amother

Bronze

Fri, May 06 2016, 6:14 pm

and I'll say it again. You married and chose to start your marriage in Kollel. Its not your in laws fault, and its not your parents fault. This is something you chose. Yes you were young and dumb, but did you think they would support you forever?

and I'm totally confused why this is more their responsibility than your parents, who presumably knew you were marrying a yeshivah guy.

and I was most definitely brought up this way.

You are blaming a difficult transition on your IL's who are not ultimately responsible. You have a great DH who has gained over the years. Yes for now you are pulling what is really his weight, but when he figures it out, you will be married to a wonderful person with values you appreciate. Don't lose sight of the big picture.

amother

Chocolate

Fri, May 06 2016, 6:20 pm

Would you say the same thing to someone who was brainwashed by a cult and one day woke up and realized that life doesn't have to be this way, but oops their parents screwed up their life. So yes it's time to grow up and take responsibility for our own lives, but no one asked to be born, and if you decide to have kids, you sure as hell better take responsibility for them.

amother

Gold

Fri, May 06 2016, 8:07 pm

amother wrote:

A person in their 20s is not considered a child. nobody is obligated to financially support a capable adult. Someone in their 20s is old enough to Work, get married buy a house, and have kids. That's not the same as a child who is not capable of those things and therefore relies on their parents to take care of them. If you grew up in a cult and one day u wake up and decide you want to change your life, you mourn the fact that your parents raised you in a cult and find the resources you need on your own to change your life. Many people have done it and it is a difficult journey and it takes courage. it's not done by going back to your parents for help or by blaming them for ever giving birth to you. That would be counterproductive.

amother

Chocolate

Sat, May 07 2016, 8:48 pm

Then back to my op - was not blaming parents rather trying to understand why parents would have children and put them in this situation. Mind boggling to me how irresponsible is.

amother

Pumpkin

Sat, May 07 2016, 9:17 pm

amother wrote:

Can I just chime in that its not always kids feeling entitled that makes it necessary for parents to support them.
My dhs parents put him through the yeshiva system, never encouraged him to become educated at all and always just spoke to him about his wellbeing in learning, not his personal development. He knew they wanted him in kollel and since he's always followed 'the system' he continued to do so.
His parents gave us a little money to support us and then suddenly sprung on him
'You need to support your wife and kids!'
They didn't bring up an independent child- they brought him up to lean on them.
So now when he can't lean on them and needs some time to get himself together (and rightfully so!), he leans on his already overworked , postpartum wife.
He's a great guy and a great father dont get me wrong. But if all you drum into your kids in Torah, Torah, Torah and aren't down to earth and practical then yes, they will end up unsustainable.
From someone who s seen the worst side of 'kollel'

You knew your DH had no skills when you married him. You knew he had no way to support your family. You chose as a married couple to not think about your future economic independence or start a plan until you were forced to. How many kids do you have? How long have you been married? It doesn't sound like it's only been a year.

Being married means starting to plan for a future. You as a couple ignored that until you were forced to plan.

You aren't completely innocent either. But you are right- your parents and the yeshiva system put you in this situation and didn't tell you the honest truth about life.

Anon bc I am in the shidduch scene but unlike your DH parents or yourself I am not allowing my Bais Yaakov daughter to not see the harsh economic realities she will encounter IYH a few years after the wedding. And I don't need more backlash for my insistence on economic stability than I am already getting from those who want to convince me and my daughter that a real Ben Torah shouldn't think about his financial future.

amother

Gold

Sat, May 07 2016, 9:36 pm

amother wrote:

Then back to my op - was not blaming parents rather trying to understand why parents would have children and put them in this situation. Mind boggling to me how irresponsible is.

You're right. It's a problem for people who are brought up this way and don't learn how to take responsibility for themselves and their families. And they have children for the same reason they don't work. That's what they are brainwashed to do. All of it is irresponsible.

Instead of asking why they have children they aren't willing to take care of, It sounds like you're trying to figure out: why do they raise their children to be so dependent on them if they aren't willing to support them?

amother

Powderblue

Sat, May 07 2016, 10:13 pm

When I came home from seminary I wanted to become a lawyer and my parents refused they keep on telling me to just get married and we will take care of all of your needs. Only marry a learning boy even though I wanted to marry someone in college with a real degree. My parents financially have the money to support me and then To support all of my married kids so it wasn't like they couldn't and I was delusional.

Fast forward my parents stopped supporting early on and yes it's hard. I'm doing the best that I can and iyh I will be independent but it's hard and yes I can be upset at my parents for putting me in this situation.

Many parents do this sugar coat everything to their daughter promise them the world and then drop them after their married.

It's very easy when you are raised to finance yourself after you are married to make fun of someone who was told we will support you for life you have nothing to worry about and then they are upset when parents lie.

amother

Wheat

Sat, May 07 2016, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

OK, I shouldn't but I'll take the bait.
I got married choosing to start in kollel.
I was medium young and did not think myself dumb.
I did not think anyone would support me ever. We planned to be self-sufficient but accept a small stipend from kollel. I had a profession, was about halfway through college, working part time, and planned to go up to working full time at a better salary after completing my degree.
And because we were not as dumb and naive as you think, we even realized that at some point our expenses would outstrip our kollel income and DH would take a position in klei kodesh.

Reality check:
By the time I finished college I was almost a mother. They all make it look like the default but it turns out working full time while raising babies may be possible for some people but definitely is not a default. I just couldn't do it. I had to stay with part time. So much for the excellent income and benefits from the professional wife.
Then the part about DH going into kodesh. Jobs in "kodesh" that can support a family are very rare. They are most viable when combined with the professional wife with full time job and benefits. And not every yeshiva graduate is by default well suited for these jobs. DH had been groomed for a rabbinical position for a long time but when he came face-to-face with it it really wasn't for him. Nobody explores career choices with young yeshiva boys to determine what would be suitable to prepare them for. There is pretty much one path.
So really those seemed like minor obstacles because we were trained to believe that whatever happens, Hashem will help, and that the key to living a life of Torah is being willing to live with less, not be spoiled, etc. Well here's where the BIGGEST reality check comes in - no matter how frugal and unspoiled you are, life still costs too much. Especially with kids. When we had only babies (breastfeeding, wic, and potty trained young - can't even take credit from that but it sure saved on diapers) we were living on a pittance. My part time salary and DH's small kollel stipend. But they get bigger very fast. You can no longer rely on hand-me-down clothes because once they start staying the same size for a year or so, the clothes get worn out before they get handed down. You can ask for a tuition discount but then they need money for trips, tips, fees, uniforms, supplies, books, it never ever ever ends. And you can talk about not being spoiled and you can raise your kids simply and you can teach them about being happy with what they have but that is not going to work if they NEVER have ANYTHING that their friends get. They need some things.
I still believe that to a large extent parnassah is from Hashem and all that, but I haven't seen the kinds of miracles they talk about in inspirational speeches. You know, where the money runs out and there's something that still needs to be paid for and all of a sudden more money appears. My stories were more like the money ran out, something still needed to be paid for, I waited for money to appear, it didn't, so I tried to make it appear by putting something up for sale, looking for some freelance work, working overtime, but the money still did not appear, so it went on a credit card and most of it got paid after the next paycheck came but some didn't so it's still sitting on the credit card along with all the other "some didn'ts" accruing interest that we will have to pay when DH finds his job.
That was also disillusioning - with our background, we never realized that it would be so hard for DH to find a job. When kodesh didn't work out (whose genius idea is it to think that bright rabbinical students can foresee a future as mashgichim and shochtim? We are talking about the yeshiva's intellectual elite in one of the most boring mindless jobs in existence. DH couldn't handle it.) they say you don't need a treif college degree, look at this or that person who made it big in some business and never had a day of formal education in his life. Well good for him, most people do not have that result.
PS we got disillusioned quite fast so all this is with only 2 kids. We put a hold on having more until we get it all figured out. Radical, I know.

So anyway, yes I think our parents and the yeshiva world at large are at least partially at fault for our stressed, dysfunctional life today, even as we are taking adult responsibility for it.

amother

Copper

Sat, May 07 2016, 10:48 pm

amother wrote:

Scared to be bashed, sorry.

What kind of schooling have you chosen for your children? Because if they're getting the same kind of education that you did, the problem is not likely to go away.

amother

Wheat

Sat, May 07 2016, 10:56 pm

amother wrote:

Scared to be bashed, sorry.

What kind of schooling have you chosen for your children? Because if they're getting the same kind of education that you did, the problem is not likely to go away.

We are working on it and it's hard. It seems like the options are the type I grew up with, or schools that are so much more modern that it's out of our observance comfort zone. So we're looking into what other options might exist. Meanwhile the kids are still young enough that they aren't being fed direct messages about what to do post-high-school so they're in the same type of school I started out in but with hopes to find where to move to within the next 2 years at most (which would be early middle school for them so plenty of time to balance out)

amother

Chocolate

Sat, May 07 2016, 10:56 pm

Powderblue and wheat, I'm happy you chimed in, although so sad and empathetic for your plight. People who weren't brought up this way just don't get it and love to throw the blame at us but it's just not that simple. Due to the nature of my work, I get to deal with the disillusioned all the time... most still having more and more children because they have not come to the logical conclusion that you have.

And just to add, if people actually saw children as a precious gift that not all of us just get to have as many as we want, then maybe they would view this whole child rearing thing as somewhat of a privilege and responsibility.

amother

Chocolate

Sat, May 07 2016, 11:04 pm

amother wrote:

Scared to be bashed, sorry.

What kind of schooling have you chosen for your children? Because if they're getting the same kind of education that you did, the problem is not likely to go away.

I chose somewhat better schools but not ideal, because (and this will be more fodder for those who completely don't understand being brought up this way) we live in a vicious cycle of having been brought up to make no money, so we can afford to move out because we can't afford to live anywhere else. I do believe a lot of what kids learn comes from the home so at least we have control there. And I reiterate that I am of the better off in this area compared to others I know that are just so stuck. But both my husband and I kill ourselves to make money ... And can barely even afford a house here which is supposed to be more affordable.

amother

Bisque

Sat, May 07 2016, 11:09 pm

I happen to be one of those people the op was talking about. My family has a good relationship with my in laws. We go over for shabbos and yomtov, have family barbecues, ect. My in laws are wealthy people who are in the front pages of several journals announcing their generous donation. At the same time they unequivocally refuse to give us one cent unless dh gets on his knees and begs. Dh and I both work full time. My in laws feel that unless someone is dirt poor and acts and dresses that way then they don't deserve help. It doesn't matter if it's their own children. We used to ask for help with tuition, summer camps, making a bris, ect and it was only after alot of begging would my fil give a lecture about how he really shouldn't be giving this and then give a check. I'm happy to say that we haven't asked him for a dime on over 5 years. In a way it's better but I still lost all respect for him since he puts his family last. Time will never change that. Ever.

amother

Salmon

Sun, May 08 2016, 4:58 am

amother wrote:

You have made me feel so validated. Thank you.
I'm sorry for you that even with a degree it's not working out Sad

I was told that I dont need a degree and only started getting an education after I was a mom already when I saw exactly how much I DO need q degree. Now I'm on the way to becoming a doctor but its hard. So very hard!!
Hatzlacha to you and all the other women going through this

Iymnok

Sun, May 08 2016, 5:22 am

Regardless of what the schools teach, you can still teach your children the value of hishtadlus and basic economics.
My mother always told us, how will you support yourself if your husband can't work or c"v something happens to him? YOU need to have marketable skills.
My DH learned bookbinding, my brother knows how to sew and made a nice Parnassah as a bochur doing mending and minor alterations. Many get a machine and cut hair.
These can all be built on. But most importantly, a small business as a teen teaches the value of finances and financial planning.
By paying for your child's basics, giving them a budget above that and a directive to fund anything beyond that themselves gives a wonderful life lesson.
We have many neighbors in Kollel for two sedarim, working the third Seder. They work in real estate, as a handyman, barber, appliance repair, lawyer, retail, delivery.
Teach your own children to support themselves. The schools won't. (Though they will still ask them for donations)
By working, they can be in learning for longer. As long as they set times for working and times for learning.

amother

Aqua

Sun, May 08 2016, 8:18 am

How about parents that choose to help certain children only? Or how about parents that only allow certain kids in the family business? The other kids they don't give a penny to and want them to figure out everything on their own.

amother

Violet

Sun, May 08 2016, 9:47 am

amother wrote:

As a parent of several married kids I can tell you it's not that simple.
Each couple is different. One we can give cash to before Pesach & Tishrei, another is irresponsible with money & we send actual groceries to & clothing.
We learnt this the hard way.
One couple if we help with something it's to help them get on their feet another it will stop them from working & striving.
And the bottom line is that none of them know what & if we give to the others. One son is convinced we support his younger brother when we never have...
We carefully weigh up when & how much to give because we want what's best & that doesn't mean a bunch of adult dependent babies.

bruriyah

Sun, May 08 2016, 4:25 pm

amother wrote:

This.

I suspect that the OP did not get the chinuch that people like you and I got. She's not trying to be insensitive. It's just that in the same way she was raised to understand that you need to be financially responsible, we were taught, on an institutional level, to be financially irresponsible.

The ones who didn't go to BY and seminary just don't get it.

Personally, I did not end up in a situation like you (Wheat) describe, but I just as easily could have. When I graduated seminary, I was drunk on the ideology we were taught and absolutely would have married someone with zero financial plans while myself not having a degree.

And it's not stupidity or naivte. It takes some time till you come to your senses and realize that some of the fundamental things you were taught are unsustainable. It doesn't happen in one day. And by then, many people are already deep in trouble. And for no good reason. It's just lost time and opportunity. Not laziness, stupidity, or lack of motivation.

And that is what gets me so angry. The "system" takes completely able and capable people, and turns them into people who are struggling and dependent on others. Besides, poverty puts tremendous strain on a marriage.

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