Supporting married children

amother

Wheat

Sun, May 08 2016, 10:13 pm

amother wrote:

And life after kollel doesn't have to be so bleak. True, most yeshiva guys have zero training but that doesn't mean they can't go for s.t now. And though most men will start at jobs where they make significantly less per hour then their wife who is some sort of therapist, men have lots of advantages over women in the workplace, mainly the fact that each hour of work doesn't mean more money for a babysitter and another hour away from kids. Also, many "starter Jobs " have significant room for growth, which OT positions and playgroup morahs and the like do not.

Not sure what universe you're living in but it's not the same as mine.
"Doesn't mean they can't go for something now" - true. But the difference between at least starting a degree when you're younger vs when you're married with your reality check already in your face is HUGE. (I want to say HUUUUUUUUGE but then you'll all be channeling Trump Tongue Out

) Anyway, a person who realizes they should really get a degree after they have seen nothing but yeshiva and are already married and probably with at least 1-2 kids is at a tremendous disadvantage. How are they paying for college when they have a family to support? OK let's say they get a scholarship and loans. They also need to adjust to a very different academic culture. And they are starting from the beginning. If they got their wake-up call at 25 that means they graduate at what, 27 *if* they got credits from yeshiva? And there aren't many jobs you can do with a 4-year degree so assume at least a couple more years that are never covered by scholarships.
And going to classes and studying is very different when you're 18 than when you're married with kids and a stressed-out working wife. Let's assume finances were already tight when you realized kollel was not going to work for long so that means your wife has to work harder for longer while you get your career in order, but you're not available to help as you were while in kollel. Your schedule does not have flexibility and you're under more pressure.

each hour of work doesn't mean more money for a babysitter and another hour away from kids

Is that so? I didn't get the memo. When DH was in kollel we lived nearby and he would bring the kids to school and pick them up while I went to work. If a kid had to stay home sick, he would stay home with them and just do his learning at home. If I got stuck on a commute and couldn't make it home on time, he had my back. All those wacko days like shushan purim when the yeshivas give the day off and no working person does. And so on. If DH working meant that I could stop working, this wouldn't be an issue but it doesn't work that way. The college years certainly you need to keep working and after that by then your expenses are higher, you may have debts to pay back, and his starter job is most likely not enough to get you very far. So all these little things like stuck in traffic on the way home, kid home sick, random yeshiva days off - SO stressful, plus often expensive either in missed worktime or in paid childcare. And my mornings are hellish now trying to get everyone out the door in different directions at ever-earlier times. I know this is normal-people life and maybe I was just spoiled before, but just saying that there is most definitely a cost to the family when kollel DH transitions out.
Also, many "starter Jobs " have significant room for growth, which OT positions and playgroup morahs and the like do not.
Again, are you for real? In what way do kollel graduates' "starter jobs" have more room for growth than their working wives' jobs? Playgroup morah ok you will hit a ceiling unless you are exceptionally talented and graduate to directing your own operation complete with parenting classes (have you noticed how much they charge for those? Wow. I need to get into that.) But OTs definitely have more short term AND long term earning potential than uneducated kollel dropouts. Except, as I said, those RARE individuals with a knack and mazel for business who they all hold up as role models for not needing an education without bothering to mention that they are the exception rather than the rule. My DH alas was not that type of entrepreneur type so now he is in an UNPAID internship after getting his 4-year college degree, while applying for "room for growth" to maybe a minimum wage position while working on a higher degree because, see above, you don't get much "room for growth" even with a 4-year degree in many fields.

Yes, it's just a transition (maybe a 10-year-long one, but what's 10 years when you're 30 and have kids in Jewish school? [/sarcasm]) and yes one day hopefully we will be past it and in a brighter and better future (after this many years of stress, I'm not sure we'll ever be healthy again) but let's not minimize the fact (fact) that life after kollel, while not necessarily "bleak," is extremely difficult and not for everyone. And it needs to be talked about a lot more, because there's a lot of talk about kollel and there's even talk about how it may not be forever and that's ok, but there is NO talk about what happens when the time comes to transition out. ZERO.

amother

Chocolate

Sun, May 08 2016, 10:37 pm

dancingqueen wrote:

No, sorry, I still dont get it, and I'm not trying to be harsh. I was also once 18 with my parents credit card but I understood that when I "grew up" I would have to make my own way. Even with a parents credit card you see that things in life cost $ right? for example my parents paid for my college and grad school which is a huge benefit, probably similar financially to being supported in kollel. But why would I think that that kind of support would last forever?

Maybe bais yaacovs should teach economics? Kudos to those of you who will raise their children in a more realistic way.

What you say is so so obvious.. to those brought up in a healthy environment. It's obvious to me now too of course ... a little too late.

I think the one clear outcome of this thread is that those who were not brought up in the completely unrealistic fantastical world of kollel will just never understand the sheer stupidity you can fill children's minds with and block them from seeing reality until it's almost too late.

It's mind boggling to you because it is just that ridiculous.

amother

Gold

Sun, May 08 2016, 10:51 pm

I went to BY and to seminary and never understood or bought into the idea of marrying a learning boy. Almost my whole class wanted to marry learning boys, but the more I heard about it and questioned the teachers and asked them to explain it, the less appealing it seemed to me. My parents made it clear they weren't going to give me money for anything and I wasn't interested in working like a slave for something I didn't even understand the point of. And I still don't get it. Why can't somebody be a Ben Torah and learn in their spare time? Learning is important, but who says it has to consume your entire day and week? As a woman, I know it's very possible to multi task and a man can learn and work and even do more than that. I still don't see how it's ok to learn on sombody else's dollar or at your wife's expense. I came to this conclusion on my own, early on, when everybody around was preaching to marry a learning boy. Yes, the system is partly to blame, but anyone who actually questions it and thinks it through should be able to realize that it's not sustainable (with the exception of someone so rich that they have enough savings to live on for their whole lives).
Also, who wants to rely on other people including parents for money as an adult? I would be completely mortified to ask my parents for money.

amother

Ruby

Sun, May 08 2016, 10:52 pm

amother wrote:

What is also very, very hard for many people is the fact that THIS is what was taught as the entire basis of our spirituality.

Our role was to become kollel wives.

Of course we were also taught the importance of tefillah and tznius (of course!), but all that was accessory to our role as kollel wives and mothers.

And when you realize that it's not working out - or in my case, before marriage, that it wouldn't work for me - it is so hard to clean out all the messages, lessons and expectations that were driven into you from when you were young. To realize that serving Hashem doesn't mean that everyone who wasn't in kollel is inferior. That a Mr. isn't less worthy than a Rabbi.

And I think this is a serious shortcoming in our schools. It's time to get the blinders off.

amother

Bronze

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:01 am

okay kollel wife here and so confused...

Why do you blame things solely on the kollel years, and the expectations of your parents and teachers? After all these years of marriage, don't you see reality?

A frum family today with children in school, easily can spend 120k a year, most spend closer to 150k. AFTER TAXES. Those numbers are not sustainable. Kollel may aggravate that, but those numbers don't work for most professions.

How much does a therapist make, after taxes? 60k if she works full time? How much does an accountant make, after taxes and commuting costs? Never mind both of their student loans...

Sure not having the early "cheap" years to get grounded financially aggravates the problem, but all you have to do is read imamother to see that almost everyone is tight. Why all this anger to your parents? Haven't they given you enough?

and another thing? How can the same people talk about how Rebbeim and Klei Kodesh aren't so poor after all, and then lament their parents encouraging them in that direction? Either they are poorer than you or they are not.

amother

Wheat

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:42 am

amother wrote:

I don't really understand what point you're trying to make. You're saying that because everyone has it tough, people who were brainwashed into kollel shouldn't mind that they have it a few hundred thousand dollars tougher? (in lost earnings from the years in college or building up a profession that most kids think about in their teens)

A full time therapist and accountant with a few years' experience (which they would have if they started at a normal point in life) should be making considerably more than 60k, plus valuable benefits such as matching retirement funds, pre-tax flexible spending accounts, more health insurance options, etc.

Some people like to talk about how rebbeim are not so poor, but first of all they're not entirely correct (though they do have some valid points regarding job perks, tuition breaks, etc - but I think the bottom line is not in the rebbies favor) and secondly not everyone is cut out to be a rebbe. That's the ones who are lamenting here. My DH was encouraged to stay in kollel as long as possible and then go into klei kodesh. Well, turns out his personality is SO NOT suited to being a rebbi or rabbi or whatever klei kodesh involves. He should have been an engineer all along. When you go from yeshiva to kollel to the bottom of the rung in college for engineering, nobody offers you tuition breaks or yomtov bonuses but you ALSO have no salary and benefits for at least another 6 hardworking years.

The question isn't who has it worse, rebbeim or kollelleit or working people or what. There are ups and downs to every place in life. The question is whether our young people have the tools to make the best personal choices in these regards. And I think it's easy to argue that they don't. Had my DH gone to a MO school he almost certainly would have had plenty of opportunities to discover his inner engineer before the end of high school. He also would have had more opportunities that encouraged things like public speaking and presentation that might have given good clues that he should NOT plan to be a teacher, rebbi, or pulpit rabbi. He would have likely made a reasonable plan that might have included combining college/professional studies with a learning schedule.

BTW that's something I forgot in my long tirade upthread. I meant to say that an additional challenge faced by kollel members transitioning to college/career is that they have had little or no opportunities or encouragement to explore what type of profession might suit them. It's very common for a kid to start college at 18 and switch majors three times. When you start college at 25 with two kids, there is a tremendous pressure to get it right on the first try and yet there is pretty much no way to do that because you haven't had a chance to explore other facets of yourself or know what's available in the broader world. It's an issue.

gold21

Mon, May 09 2016, 12:54 am

amother wrote:

Lol. I had a similar experience. The thing is, there are so many different personalities in this world. Those of us who are critical thinkers have an advantage in these sorts of situations. And what made me a critical thinker in the first place... well, different experiences in my life made me develop that part of me, which, looking back, I should probably be grateful for. But there are all types of young people in this world, some are more accepting, some are less accepting; but yeah, I can totally see how someone could be blindsided by real life after being convinced of something unrealistic by all the teachers and authority figures they trusted. It is unfair, and I do empathize.

Last edited by gold21 on Mon, May 09 2016, 7:34 am; edited 2 times in total

bruriyah

Mon, May 09 2016, 1:36 am

gold21 wrote:

Lol. I had a similar experience. The thing is, not everyone is a critical thinker. Those of us who are have at an advantage in these sorts of situations. And what made me a critical thinker in the first place... well, I guess different experiences in my life made me develop that part of me. But there are all kinds of personalities in this world, and some people are more accepting, so yes, I can totally see how someone could be blindsided by real life after being convinced of something unrealistic by all the teachers and authority figures they trusted. It is unfair, and I do empathize.

Your post comes across as somewhat haughty. I think it's insulting to say that those of us who "fell" for this hashkafa lacked critical thinking skills. My critical thinking skills were prefectly intact back then and I still bought into it. That's because no matter how smart you are, you don't have the real facts at that age. You don't really understand that the numbers will never add up because you haven't yet been in a situation where you are budgeting and crunching numbers.

Good for you that you were not thus influenced, but it's way more complex than you are making it sound.

I think a much more important factor in this equation is to what extent you saw youself as a product of the HS/Seminary from which you graduated. If you were the type that went, did her thing, and left, you were much less likely to buy into all these hashkafos.

If you were an involved student who has relationships with teachers/rebeim, you were way more likely to have wanted to espouse the hashkafos being taught.

bruriyah

Mon, May 09 2016, 1:49 am

amother wrote:

I don't think you understand what they were trying to teach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you are saying, but every one of the points you are raising was raised and "answered" by my teachers. There is a fundamental hashkafa that was being taught that did not ignore these questions. I don't have the time now to elaborate, but the kollel hashkafa (whether it was purposely calculated or evolved) is part of a larger picture that if understood, can seem rational and good.

People don't buy into it because they are naive or stupid. They buy into it because the want to be sincere avdei Hashem and it's being fed to them at a time in life where the represussions are not apparent, and so why not try and live this seemingly beautiful life of elevated spirituality?

If you didn't think it was for you, that's fine. But please don't make it sound like all the people around you were silly puppets who were just following mindlessly.

amother

Copper

Mon, May 09 2016, 2:34 am

amother wrote:

Had my DH gone to a MO school he almost certainly would have had plenty of opportunities to discover his inner engineer before the end of high school. He also would have had more opportunities that encouraged things like public speaking and presentation that might have given good clues that he should NOT plan to be a teacher, rebbi, or pulpit rabbi. He would have likely made a reasonable plan that might have included combining college/professional studies with a learning schedule.

I hope that you are sending your kids to MO schools, then.

There's a lot of blame being placed on teachers and parents here. The thing is that now WE are the parents and we are choosing the schools. We ARE "the system." If we keep playing along, we become part of the problem. Why are so many people perpetuating a system that doesn't work?

One poster said they can't afford to move. Brooklyn is pretty expensive. Don't like the message at the local schools? Talk to the administration see how far you can get. When twenty parents ask not to be in Mrs Xs class because she pushes kollel, you might get different teachers. We all make some compromises when we send to school. Decide what really matters to you and act on it.

There's a sense of powerlessness here that is terribly depressing.

amother

Wheat

Mon, May 09 2016, 2:41 am

amother wrote:

I discussed my schooling considerations earlier in this thread.
We are hoping to move out of town but are currently somewhat limited by the fact that DH is still in middle of his higher education and my job is bound to our current locale.
We are hoping that by the time our kids are old enough for it to matter, we will be ready to put down roots in a more normal environment.

I do not feel powerless but I do feel angry. A little powerless to change the world at large, but not powerless to influence my family and to realize that many others are coming to the same decisions. It's sad to kind of write off half the yeshiva world in the process but there comes a point where you realize there's just nothing left to do for them until each individual decides on their own.

SacN

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:38 am

My husband and I are baalei techuva with public school and university and graduate educations. A lot of this doesn't apply to me.

We both grew up middle/upper middle class, and had expectations that with two professional careers (albeit, one a mommy job, I'm a teacher), we'd have a comparable lifestyle to our parents.

But, we're frum, and we have lots of student loans, and we are younger in our careers than we've known our parents at, and we had kids sooner. We live month to month and can't pay our loans. We didn't expect this, and were used to a higher standard.

Adjusting expectations is always hard. Kollel, loan payments, children, money, whatever.

Growing up is hard, for everyone. BH, man was made to toil, right? Be happy for what you do have, because this is what life is.

My kids to go charedi schools. I plan to instill in them, from a very young age, a sense that Torah is not just opening a Sefer. It's how you conduct yourself while you fulfill your responsibilities, it's what you do and breathe every second of the day, not a separate segment of your life that you can have more of by being in the Bais medresh. I'm very proud of my working husband who loves learning and wishes he had more time for it. He's truly living Torah. Learning all day is a luxury, not a given, and it doesn't necessarily give you more Torah in your life.

My daughters will learn that if they want to marry a Kollel guy, they need to get a professional degree and expect to work full time and afford hired help.
My sons will learn (from before they pick a high school) that if they plan to stay in learning, they better be available to pick up all the slack, have a reliable side job, and have a back up plan from the start.

Yes, their personal hashkafos will be a blend of "the system" and what I think. Maybe they'll think I'm the worrywart mother who doesn't have enough bitachon. Doesn't mean I'll be helping with their shidduchim or helping them financially until I see them having a practical plan.

Of course, no matter what I do, they'll also struggle.
Everyone struggles.
BH.
Being happy is not about having easy circumstances.

amother

Vermilion

Mon, May 09 2016, 3:56 am

amother wrote:

Here's a slightly different angle to this issue.

I'm already part of the next generation - the children of the long term kollel families.

We've seen both the positive and negative effects of kollel, and there is no money to support us - not a penny. And we don't expect it.

We've been educated in Bais Yaakov for years and years about kollel, but this what I, and many of my peers, saw at home -

We saw that while our fathers were sitting in kollel, enjoying intellectual stimulation and acknowledgment, putting out seforim and giving shiurim, our mothers were silently and quietly working themselves to the bone and beyond, having babies year after year, not even allowing themselves to ask their husbands to help them bein hazmanim because of 'bitul Torah', not being allowed to receive recognition for their professional lives because women are supposed to only have jobs, not a career, being told time and time again through shiurim and articles and the entire system that their entire worth depended on their husband's learning, and that their many accomplishments were only worth something if it helped their husbands' learning.

Then their children grew up, and with all the praise about kollel, no one wanted to marry them, because there was no money to give in support. Our grandparents aren't exactly supporting us, you know.

Not just that, we know exactly how much sacrifice kollel entails - the times when there is just no money, no breathing space, the pressure, the tension, even if we did manage to wing it through the month, the stress definitely leaves an impact.

I did not want to marry a kollel boy. My parents were devastated. To tell you the honest truth, it was very hard for me to consider marrying someone who would work - it really was considered subpar in our family.

Bottom line is - this system is not sustainable. It can work for one generation, it might tenuously stretch itself thin to work for the next generation - but at a certain point, it snaps.

I think that instead of raising our children to think and believe that kollel is the standard, the norm, the ideal and the expected, we need to start talking about how to build Torah homes and families even without learning all day.

This is EXACTLY my situation. And I don't want my kids to be in kollel or girls to marry guys in kollel. But DH, who has such a relaxing life of no responsibility would never hear of it. What do you do in that situation? I have time 'til shidduchim & but I would never recommend this life style to my children. It has almost made me OTD & when I spoke to a rebbetzin I know, she told me that many other kollel wives have said the same thing. THIS HAS TO STOP!!