Supporting married children

amother

Chocolate

Mon, May 09 2016, 2:49 am

amother wrote:

I hope that you are sending your kids to MO schools, then.

There's a lot of blame being placed on teachers and parents here. The thing is that now WE are the parents and we are choosing the schools. We ARE "the system." If we keep playing along, we become part of the problem. Why are so many people perpetuating a system that doesn't work?

One poster said they can't afford to move. Brooklyn is pretty expensive. Don't like the message at the local schools? Talk to the administration see how far you can get. When twenty parents ask not to be in Mrs Xs class because she pushes kollel, you might get different teachers. We all make some compromises when we send to school. Decide what really matters to you and act on it.

There's a sense of powerlessness here that is terribly depressing.

I don't live in NY. Where I live is considered one of the most affordable places to live. Full of brainwashed kollel people. 3 guesses.

To all the posters saying they grew up like this and saw through it - SO DID I. So I didn't marry a kollel guy. We were still both sorely lacking in any kind of career guidance or understanding, and completely naive about finances or reality. Just because you think you are smart enough to buck the system, doesn't mean you are not completely clueless how to navigate real life, at a much bigger disadvantage than those who are brought up to actually function in a responsible adult society. I understand that baalei teshuva or the like think they can show their children the right path while espousing kollel, but just no. You don't get it until you've been through it (and consider yourself lucky that you haven't).

gold21

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:19 am

bruriyah wrote:

Your post comes across as somewhat haughty. I think it's insulting to say that those of us who "fell" for this hashkafa lacked critical thinking skills. My critical thinking skills were prefectly intact back then and I still bought into it. That's because no matter how smart you are, you don't have the real facts at that age. You don't really understand that the numbers will never add up because you haven't yet been in a situation where you are budgeting and crunching numbers.

Good for you that you were not thus influenced, but it's way more complex than you are making it sound.

I think a much more important factor in this equation is to what extent you saw youself as a product of the HS/Seminary from which you graduated. If you were the type that went, did her thing, and left, you were much less likely to buy into all these hashkafos.

If you were an involved student who has relationships with teachers/rebeim, you were way more likely to have wanted to espouse the hashkafos being taught.

Haughty?... come on now. Actually, I was trying to describe that part of my personality in a positive way... I could say I tend to be cynical but I would rather say im a critical thinker. Lol. Anyway, I dont want to offend you, so let me know and ill gladly delete the post.

Yes, I was definitely the type that went, did my thing, and left. I did not get into trouble or stand out, but I did not form close relationships with teachers either. I hung out with my friends, did my schoolwork, and graduated.

No, I didnt fully understand finances, but I knew that money didnt simply show up on your front porch when u needed it. Again, as I mentioned in my previous post, experiences in my life growing up helped mold that part of my personality.

Last edited by gold21 on Mon, May 09 2016, 4:28 am; edited 1 time in total

amother

Gold

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:25 am

bruriyah wrote:

I don't think you understand what they were trying to teach. There is absolutely nothing wrong with what you are saying, but every one of the points you are raising was raised and "answered" by my teachers. There is a fundamental hashkafa that was being taught that did not ignore these questions. I don't have the time now to elaborate, but the kollel hashkafa (whether it was purposely calculated or evolved) is part of a larger picture that if understood, can seem rational and good.

People don't buy into it because they are naive or stupid. They buy into it because the want to be sincere avdei Hashem and it's being fed to them at a time in life where the represussions are not apparent, and so why not try and live this seemingly beautiful life of elevated spirituality?

If you didn't think it was for you, that's fine. But please don't make it sound like all the people around you were silly puppets who were just following mindlessly.

I didn't understand it and it seemed that the entire class did. I asked teachers to explain it to me and they would say you don't have to be a martyr wife. It will all work out and the money will come from somewhere. That wasn't a good explanation for me because I knew money didn't grow on trees. I also didn't buy into the fact that they told us girls should cut their hair short (shoulder length and below) and wear baggy shirts and even if it was not as attractive, a boy will like you for your middos and your personality. I knew that most boys at least where I live wouldn't give you the time of day if you didn't look good. Maybe I was raised to be a realist or not to follow the crowd, but I was not brainwashed in seminary. I'm not trying to show off. I thought I was weird that I was one of the only people who didn't come out of seminary wanting to marry a learning boy and this is the first time I'm hearing that people actually regret it.

SacN

Mon, May 09 2016, 4:30 am

Quote:

I understand that baalei teshuva or the like think they can show their children the right path while espousing kollel, but just no.

I wasn't saying that I plan to show them the right path while espousing Kollel, I was saying that regardless of the "system, " I plan to teach my kids how to be responsible, and to know that Torah living isn't just having your nose in a Sefer, and that life requires thinking ahead.

Almost all of my close friends are in Kollel.
From personal experience, everyone has their challenges. The fact that my husband is never around because of his career is a major stress.

I could blame my parents for the idea that college always pays (I have loans and don't work in that field, id be happier had I worked and saved in those years), or my in laws for the fact that my husband has his bad middos. I could blame the world I grew up in for my expectations of comfort in life, and I could blame my kids who keep me up at night for my grouchy mood.

Life is not black and white. Modern orthodox society also had problems. Secular life also has problems.

I don't think Kollel is perfect or for everyone, and I think it takes a lot of planning and preparation. But okay, so does everything.

mommy3b2c

Mon, May 09 2016, 5:16 am

bruriyah wrote:

I don't know. I see gold21's point. I also went to BY schools. I barely remember them preaching about kollel, but one thing is for sure. I KNEW I didn't want a long term learner.

1) I knew I liked nice things and spending money, so obviously I needed to marry someone who would make money and could provide me with those things.

2) I was not at all yeshivish. I dressed trendy, watched movies, etc... I wasn't ready to stop doing those things, so why would I want a long term learner?

I admit, I don't come from a yeshivish family, but.... It's hard for me to believe that everyone is stupid enough to think that they can live with no money.

(And it's not like I knew about how much things cost, because my parents paid for everything until I got married, and quite a bit past marriage too.)

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 5:44 am

amother wrote:

and I'll say it again. You married and chose to start your marriage in Kollel. Its not your in laws fault, and its not your parents fault. This is something you chose. Yes you were young and dumb, but did you think they would support you forever?

and I'm totally confused why this is more their responsibility than your parents, who presumably knew you were marrying a yeshivah guy.

and I was most definitely brought up this way.

You are blaming a difficult transition on your IL's who are not ultimately responsible. You have a great DH who has gained over the years. Yes for now you are pulling what is really his weight, but when he figures it out, you will be married to a wonderful person with values you appreciate. Don't lose sight of the big picture.

I suspect I will regret responding to p. 2 when we're already up to p. 5 but I won't be able to keep track of everything.
I won't bash kollel but I would not want my son to get married without his having a sense of achrayus, ideas for his future (even if the game plan is sketchy, as long as it is sync with his kochos and he has whom to seek guidance from), and of course, good middos. (This is what I've told my girls to look for so I would hope to raise my young men this way.)

I'm concerned about the current kollel model because for many people it is no longer sustainable. Parents of kids in kollel may still have other children whose tuitions should come first, and may even be helping parents. There are so many responsibilities that come up (let's leave aside losing jobs, etc.) that it is unfair to the kids for them to start without any level of resourcefulness.

BUT, and this is most relevant to the post I'm snipping and that discussion, parents may agree - and bless them for it, I'd love to be able to myself - to support or help support for x number of years. But then what is the transition plan? Starter jobs don't always bring in a lot, even if there's potential for growth, and during training, education, etc. the kids still need help, and this is where some of our posters are coming from.

Of course, one would hope that they might start getting the education during the end of their kollel time, or some practical internship bein hazmanim or bein hasedorim, etc. I think a lot of people aren't thinking that far ahead.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 5:49 am

amother wrote:

Scared to be bashed, sorry.

What kind of schooling have you chosen for your children? Because if they're getting the same kind of education that you did, the problem is not likely to go away.

I know where amother wheat on p. 2 is coming from. But about your response: no bashing! But people, please don't discount your ability as parents to guide your kids. Know your kids. Some may want kollel, some not. Some may want to start, some may want to go the distance. Don't be scared that your kids won't get married if you mortgage your lives. I could go on. But we parents have power!
No, no one wants to send their kids to a school where they'll feel that they have to deprogram their kids every day. I guess I'm lucky that I didn't have to do that. I send big hugs to all of you who are in that position. If I were a parent and such a school was my only option I don't know what I'd do.

PinkFridge

Mon, May 09 2016, 5:58 am

amother wrote:

I think that instead of raising our children to think and believe that kollel is the standard, the norm, the ideal and the expected, we need to start talking about how to build Torah homes and families even without learning all day.

I don't think kollel should just be for the elite. Please don't get me wrong. But you bring up an important point: it is possible to be a ben Torah and serious learn even when working. A generation ago, when it was clear that a man had to leave and start working full time, the transition was difficult but not as angst-filled as now. I can't elaborate now but hope someone knows where I'm going, and that the thread won't be locked before I get back to the last 2 pages Twisted Evil

Chayalle

Mon, May 09 2016, 6:26 am

My DH recently met the Rosh Yeshiva of a yeshiva he once learned in and when he heard we have a high school senior, he gave DH a mini lecture on the importance of marrying her off to a yeshiva man, Kollel, that's all that matters, etc...with lots of respect, this man does not know our DD from beans, doesn't know her needs and strengths, etc...But DH and I know her and love her and know that she needs a husband who will support her in the long run, and we know that that is what we will look for B"EH (and yes, we are a Kollel family but that's okay, Chanoch L'naar al pi Darko). Perhaps someone who will learn short term but with a plan.....

I was pained by the posters who wrote here about the disconnect they had with their parents when it came to Shidduchim. I have seen this as well - DH has lots of relatives, aunts and uncles who are still in the Kollel system after having married off children already and with large families, still having several to marry off (I don't come from a yeshivish family so haven't experienced this myself.) I see that some of them are not in touch with their children as individuals, and are still trying to push their own ideals and life on their children. Some of them want their parents' lifestyle, but some of them don't, and there's a lot of conflict and shut-down and no communication and parents pushing what they want vs. what the child needs.

I think that for some in the Kollel system, they have lost sight of this (and I'm sure this is true in many, many circles - a relative of mine who failed to marry the doctor of her parents' dreams comes to mind....) - the individual needs and strengths of their children, and also, what that child WANTS. I think to marry someone long-term in Kollel if you don't WANT it is a huge disservice....even with a small family, I can personally say it's challenging, and you have to have the Ratzon to get thru it. No, you don't have to be elite, but if you don't choose it personally, it should not be pushed on you.

amother

Mistyrose

Mon, May 09 2016, 6:31 am

PinkFridge wrote:

TRANSITION PLAN

After two years of learning and two kids dh left kollel. I got a pt job and told my parents to stop sending money. dhs parents still sent 800$ month. Dh began some night school as a back up but thought he would make it big in business. lol. dh did a bunch of low paying jobs that kept not working out, tried starting a business that also failed ultimatly finding a 9_5 day job that was toxic but paid. for like three years we lived this way, me starting night college also at some point. dh got out of school got a great starter job. I started school full time. his salary keeps rising bh and mine while more stagnant is pretty good. we make about 130k/year which is not great but iyh should keep rising.

our attitude was always how can we get off support. I think night college is a great option and while low paying jobs can be a little depressing they are great experience and teach you the value of money really fast.

op I get that you are stuck and frustrated and hurt but its imperative that you stop pointing fingers. im sure you know this but men really need the support and belief of their wives. your both in it together its no one's fault. let him be your knight in shining armor even if that just means holding you while you cry out your fears.

amother

Mustard

Mon, May 09 2016, 7:31 am

As a mother of daughters in shiduchim who don't want long term learners but they want a true Yiras Shmayim and Midadked B'Halacha there are not so many such young men who combine the two. It is very tough.

My son who is in E"Y also has no plan and it is very frustrating, He want to learn long time, he is a great young man, Yiras Shomayim, midakdek B;Halacha, wonderful Middos a Baal Chesed, shows up to all his sedorim does not goof off but he is not a Masmid (meaning he does not spend his free time learning). There is nothing wrong with that but in my opinion he should not be in Kollel forever. My second son who is much younger is a much bigger Masmid and I will have a different opinion on him.

The system says all should do it so we have great boys with proper hishtadlus would make great supporters of Torah doing professions that they love. Instead they are locked in a system.

I struggle to support my large family I can't unless a miracle happens support my children's family.

It is so tough for a Bais Yaakov type young woman who doesn't want a long term learner but wants a very eirlich man.

Rav Hunter ZT"l knew how to guide his talmidim but that was generations ago.