Vent: tznius at the pool

amother

Purple

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:18 pm

sneakermom wrote:

It's not for us to judge other people. Period.

But let's just acknowledge that seeing a chassidishe woman step out of her usual chassidishe persona and easily slip into a modern or secular persona is shocking.

And when we see something shocking we try to make sense of it.

Hence this discussion.

Thank you sneakermom and all the others for validating my post and for trying to understand me instead of bashing me! I appreciate it.

amother

Lemon

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:26 pm

Clarissa wrote:

I think we can all agree that there is nothing that turns on a man more than an elbow. One time I sneaked into my dad's drawer and found a Playboy magazine and there it was -- picture of elbow after elbow. So embarrassing!!

Everyone is different. For my husband it was my undeveloped biceps combine that with some collar bone and he was over the moon. A simple commercial ad for a coffee product could have him panting like an animal.

greenfire

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:27 pm

Chayalle wrote:

If there's one thing I learned on imamother it's that different people have different standards. It's our job not to judge, but just to stick to our own standards and work on ourselves.

So you and your daughters swim only covered up? Guess what, I could see someone write the following post on imamother: I was on vacation and there was this obviously frum woman and her daughters swimming in the pool at the hotel. Could you imagine? Yeah, they were all wearing coverups, but it was not a pool with a mechitza or separate swimming hours.....any man could've passed by and seen them. Does she have no standards? What's wrong with her?

So you are fine with swimming in a public pool as long as you are covered. Others are not. This woman was fine with the way she was dressed while hanging out at the pool while men were swimming. You aren't okay with that. There are always gonna be people with different standards. If your husband and son were not okay with the woman being there dressed as she was, they should've left the pool area.

inspired by this post as well as swimming on the beach

so my wonder is not so much that women come in their bathing dresses ... but that men come in their clothing ... white shirt black pants

despite me wearing a bathing suit [don't judge I grew up on the beach], I weirdly feel what are these frum men doing on the beach fully clothed - not that I want them to get into their bathing suits - I just don't want them to be there

I don't much care about other people - because I am there for the water and nobody else ... I am not looking at them / they are not looking at me

is this a warped way of thinking - does this differ from OP - am I being hypocritical ?

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:37 pm

ora_43 wrote:

What bothers me about behavior like OP describes is this -

People who pretend to be "frummer" than they actually are tend to see themselves as the victims/the influenced - "I'm under so much pressure," "I can't be my real self because... " etc.

What they tend not to recognize is that they are also creating social pressure. Just because they aren't doing it intentionally, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

Every one of us plays a part in creating other people's views of what humanity is, what society is, what frum people are, what chassidic/MO/whatever Jews are... Whether you want to or not. And not just when it comes to religion; when it comes to everything.

I'm not saying we bear responsibility for other people's choices, or for their mistaken perceptions. But we do have an obligation to at least not be deliberately dishonest.

"Well, all I did was to always, 100% of the time wear 100% frummie clothing in my frum neighborhood, solely because I want the people around me to think I'm a frum Jew - I didn't actually say anything to you personally about my beliefs" - give. me. a. break. When clothing gets absurdly specific enough that a group uses it to self-identify, *and you buy into that by deliberately using that clothing to identify as a group member, every single time that certain people are watching* you're saying something whether you say it with words or not.

See, you decided that this is what this type of levush represents. And therefore, anyone who does things you think is out of line for your collection of assumptions about what message this levush is sending, is a hypocrite.

This is based a lot on prejudice and preconceptions.

Most people in the chassidish society know that there is a huge range within the chassidish world. Just like every type of society. There are chassidish people who believe that there shouldn't be pictures of little girls in the magazines, and there are chassidish people who watch TV shows and movies.

All a shtreimel shows most of the time is that this person's father wore a shtreimel. Why should he change his levush just because you think that a guy with a shtreimel shouldn't be watching a movie or wearing shorts on vacation?

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

All a shtreimel shows most of the time is that this person's father wore a shtreimel. Why should he change his levush just because you think that a guy with a shtreimel shouldn't be watching a movie or wearing shorts on vacation?

If that was all it showed, then he would be watching movies and wearing shorts in his own community, too.

If someone sometimes wears a shtreimel "at home", and sometimes wears shorts - they clearly don't realize that exactly zero non-chassidim view shtreimel-wearing as casually as they apparently do, but there's nothing hypocritical about their behavior.

If they always wear a certain levush in their own community and only dress otherwise when they travel - then I say again, give me a break. It's not just what "I" the viewer perceive - they are clearly deliberately creating a certain perception.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:43 pm

amother wrote:

I just hope that those who are asking us to not judge them when they dress however they want on vacation are not the ones calling/teaching theirs kids that those who eat oud or wear denim skirts are non jews.

I am one of those disturbed by the judgmental attitude on this thread.

I am consistent whether on vacation or in my community. I teach my kids to love all Jews and they are exposed to many different types of Jews at our shabbos table, all respected and appreciated. I have friends who wear shpitzels and friends who wear pants.

Does that now validate my posts?

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:46 pm

amother wrote:

We're all free to discuss whatever we want, but I'm surprised at the amount of righteous judgmentalism here.

I think it is really shallow to freely call people hypocrites and judge solely on the basis of external appearance.

You don't know these women, you don't know their beliefs, you don't know why they're doing the things they do. They may be following a thought out approach consistent with their beliefs.

Just because someone wears certain clothing, doesn't mean you can fling them into a narrow little box and call any behavior they do that doesn't fit with your image of what they're 'supposed' to be doing hypocritical.

How judgmental and simplistic.

Look, I grew up OOT (as my name suggests), and it was quite obvious by my dress that I was a Frum girl. I was taught from a young age the importance of making a Kiddush Hashem wherever I went, because I represented Frum Jews. When I see people who are clearly wearing the Levush on the outside, but not acting to the standards of their community, then yes it bothers me, because by choosing to wear the clothing, they are representing their community whether they like it or not. And yes, non-Frum people and non-Jews realize it, trust me, when they see inconsistencies, they are quick to point them out. Do whatever you want in your own home, that's between you and HKB"H, but if you are in public and knowingly wearing the uniform of your community, you have an obligation to act according to the standards of your community, because the world (not just us here on Imamother) is going to judge regardless of your reasoning.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:47 pm

ora_43 wrote:

Many people would love to do that in their own communities, but the schools would kick their kids out, they would be shunned and gossiped about, and their own family would be devastated, create a lot of drama, guilt trip them, etc.

Like I said before, many times the community and family are very, very enmeshed.

And many people are not prepared to deal with what could be devastating consequences. Or their spouses.

It is a very hard place to be in. Don't judge until you're in their shoes.

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:50 pm

amother wrote:

I also have all type of friends, from Chassidic to very far off non-Frum, and I love all of them. But that doesn't take away from the fact that when someone wears a uniform that shows that they belong to a particular division of Yiddishkeit, I except them to make every effort to act to those standards. Levush is only clothing if you don't stand by what you represent.

Zehava

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:52 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Goshes. Who do you think you are to expect things of other people? Get off your sky high horse. And what of my levush is only clothing? What's it to you?

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:55 pm

amother wrote:

It is a very hard place to be in. Don't judge until you're in their shoes.

Again, I don't think it's "judging" to clearly label behavior for what it is, without condemning the people involved. Or at least, it's not the bad type of judging.

Let's say a teen from a horrible family situation, who is extremely poor, steals clothing (example based on a true story). Do I judge her in the sense of saying "what an awful girl"? God forbid. I can see why she did it, and I'm not claiming I'd have done better in the same situation. But I'm not going to hesitate to label the stealing as stealing, either.