Vent: tznius at the pool

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:55 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

I also have all type of friends, from Chassidic to very far off non-Frum, and I love all of them. But that doesn't take away from the fact that when someone wears a uniform that shows that they belong to a particular division of Yiddishkeit, I except them to make every effort to act to those standards. Levush is only clothing if you don't stand by what you represent.

That was a response to a specific post.

What I'm saying is that a lot of these 'standards' are standards that people have decided all chassidish people have or must have if they wear the levush.

Except that there is a wide range of people and standards within every chassidus. There are the 'heise' chassidim and the 'kalte' chassidim and the chilled chassidim and in between chassidim.

Etc.

And just because someone wears seams because her parents won't talk to her again for a long time if she takes them off, doesn't mean she has to be forced into doing what you think she should be doing.

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 3:04 pm

amother wrote:

Many people would love to do that in their own communities, but the schools would kick their kids out, they would be shunned and gossiped about, and their own family would be devastated, create a lot of drama, guilt trip them, etc.

Like I said before, many times the community and family are very, very enmeshed.

Also, like I said before, if people are creating a *false* impression that they are part of the system - then they are also playing a part in keeping up the pressure on other young couples, even if it's completely unintentional. By playing along, they're allowing community leaders to keep seeing the system as sustainable when it may very well not be.

Like I said before, I'm not saying it's not understandable why they would do that. I am saying that there's a reason why that behavior is, in my eyes, a bad thing, not merely a matter of personal preference.

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 3:30 pm

Chayalle wrote:

If there's one thing I learned on imamother it's that different people have different standards. It's our job not to judge, but just to stick to our own standards and work on ourselves.

So you and your daughters swim only covered up? Guess what, I could see someone write the following post on imamother: I was on vacation and there was this obviously frum woman and her daughters swimming in the pool at the hotel. Could you imagine? Yeah, they were all wearing coverups, but it was not a pool with a mechitza or separate swimming hours.....any man could've passed by and seen them. Does she have no standards? What's wrong with her?

So you are fine with swimming in a public pool as long as you are covered. Others are not. This woman was fine with the way she was dressed while hanging out at the pool while men were swimming. You aren't okay with that. There are always gonna be people with different standards. If your husband and son were not okay with the woman being there dressed as she was, they should've left the pool area.

I was actually going to say something a little like this. Everyone has different standards, but personally, I wouldn't swim in a pool in a hotel, even with a fully tznius coverup, unless it is totally separate hours and men wouldn't come by. I would be very uncomfortable getting out of a pool in a sopping wet bathing suit dress, that would no doubt be clinging to me, in front of men.

However, I realized that OP's issue was not necessarily someone having different standards than her, but rather someone acting with different standards when on vacation than she does at home.

I think what I am going to say now applies to both of the above (I.e. being around people with different standards than you, and being around people who are not consistent in their own standards).....I live in a community in which my standards of tznius are higher than many of the frum people in the community. It is a constant challenge not to be judgemental and I try very hard to repeat the following points to myself (sometimes with more success than others):

- I am SO fortunate that tznius is not something that is much of a struggle for me. It's just my nature - not anything I did to be this way. Everyone struggles with different things, and, for me, tznius is not it. However, for many people, tznius is a HUGE struggle. Just like I don't think it's right for someone who by nature loves fruit and has no desire to eat cake, ice cream, etc., to judge me for eating (maybe a bit too much of) those things, how can I judge someone who doesn't have my standards of tznius when I don't struggle with it and they perhaps struggle hugely?

- I have no idea where a person I see on the street (or even people I know pretty well) is coming from or going through. Maybe she has really difficult things going on her life and can't muster the strength to fight the tznius battle right now. To use the example presented by the OP on this thread - maybe that woman is going through a lot and/or didn't grow up in the community she is in and this is a huge struggle for her. It's not necessarily that she just decides to cast off her usual standards on a whim while she's on vacation because she can get away with it. Maybe she tries really hard all year and it's just too much for her and she slips while she's on vacation and feels bad about it.

- If I would look closely at myself, I would find a lot of things that I do that are not completely
consistent or that are not of the highest standard. I try to be a good Jew, but there are lots of challenges and I don't always do the greatest job of it myself, so I should try to be understanding of others and their struggles and inconsistencies.

I will say, that if I had been in OP's situation, my reflex would probably also have been to be irked by the fact that this woman was behaving in a way that was inconsistent and not in keeping with a certain standard, but, since I was not there, it's easier for me to step back and see it from a different perspective.

[I hope this post doesn't sound preachy. It's not easy to keep perspective when dealing with the people around us, and I certainly struggle with that as much as anyone. I just wanted to share some thoughts that sometimes help me to see things from a different angle when I find myself getting hung up on someone else's lack of standards.]

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 3:54 pm

Zehava wrote:

Goshes. Who do you think you are to expect things of other people? Get off your sky high horse. And what of my levush is only clothing? What's it to you?

Look Zehava, I love you and I respect where you are coming from and your circumstances. I understand that you grew up in a community where everyone was expected to be the same and woe unto you if you weren't, but I grew up very differently.

I was, in many ways "the Rabbi's daughter". At some point in my education, I was one of the only kids in my class who was Shomer Shabbos, and certainly the only girl who wore long sleeves and skirts. Being the Rabbi's daughter, I was expected to act a certain way, and my clothing represented that. Everything that I did was scrutizied by everyone else, and yes people talk. So I always assumed that everyone has that sensitivity. It was a big blow to me when I came to bigger Frum communities, who had all of the supports in the world, Shomer Shabbos friends, access to Tznius clothing, you name it, to realize that not everyone who appeared on the outside to be as Frum as I was really held it as dear.

And personally, I find that sad.

Zehava

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 4:21 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Yes well I see where you are coming from but now as an adult it's time to grow up and not to expect things of strangers. It's time to learn to live your own life and let others live theirs. To see you come on here foisting the expectations that were on you as a child onto everyone else just hits a nerve.

amother

Pewter

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 4:42 pm

So I hear how it might be surprising or shocking to see ppl dress differently on vacation, but here's my take.
I went away recently and didn't cover up as much as I do at home because I don't think it's necessary. However, in the community that I live in, it is considered necessary and so I will conform to those standards while I live there.
Furthermore, my dh is no longer a believer, and when we are away by ourselves he gets the break that he needs, so he can go on living the Jewish life that I and the kids need and want the rest of the time. If it was up to him, there would be zero tznius or anything else at all.
Finally, this poor lady wasn't in a bathing suit or bikini, her sleeves were a bit short. Leave her alone. If you want to pick on someone , go vent about your husband swimming with her around. Let's stop picking on the woman all the time.

amother

Yellow

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 4:49 pm

Well, that's nothing compared to what I've seen obviously frum people do on vacay.

DH and I were once in Vegas (we could stay at a really nice hotel pretty cheaply). So, Shabbos morning we go to the pool area to sit in the shade and read and relax - they have many pools, lots of deck space. We are pretty undercover and not easily identified as frum folks, as we are dressed tznius but casually and DH has a baseball hat on.

So we sit by a pool area that is near a pool that's currently not open. It's lovely and tranquil and relaxing and quiet.

Then some others seem to have the same idea and the chairs in our area begin to fill up pretty quickly. Pool's still closed. We notice a couple of groups of very frum guys, definitely married age. They're ordering drinks, signing the slips (it's shabbos morning remember!) then start talking loudly to each other about when the pool opens. They're discussing whether they have the best spot, the best "view". They're stripping down to swimsuits.

Now more people are arriving as DH and I are gathering our things up, preparing to leave, discussing whether to take a walk around the hotel or to go back to our room, and then the pool opens. Well, it turns out that we were seated by the "topless" pool and that the "pool party" was beginning. And here were many frum fellows hopping in the pool with topless women, guys who'd been sure to arrive early to secure a good spot with a good view.

I was completely dumbfounded by this. I scurried to get back into the hotel and away from this madness, but DH could not resist walking past the fellows and then loudly wishing them a good shabbos, and saying something in yiddish about the weather and when they expected their wives to join....We had an amazingly good laugh back in the hotel room. We could not believe what we had just seen!

So, uncovered knees and elbows really do not shock me - though I generally do keep my nose out of other people's business.....

cnc

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:05 pm

amother wrote:

What exactly makes these guys "very frum" ?

return2You

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:17 pm

Here's my take on life.

We are all hypocrites. Period.

Some people in their dress standards.

For me, when I daven, yet use that same mouth to speak lashon hara or yell at my child- that's pure hypocrisy.

When you're not honest in your financial dealings - that's hypocricy too.

I don't judge you for your hypocritical actions because I know that we're all human and I don't know your circumstances prompting you to behave the way you do.

Why does the tznius hypocrisy bother you more than any of the other double standards you routinely see and practice?

I think it stems from extreme insecurity. You're thinking " I'm so careful in my tznius and it's not fair that others are ruining it for me because now my husband and boys are going to be affected by them."

That was something I struggled with early on in my marriage and something you need to work out internally, op.

Because it's got nothing to do with that woman. It's something in you.

Last edited by return2You on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:31 pm; edited 1 time in total

out-of-towner

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:40 pm

flowerpower wrote:

Really, it is not our place to judge others. Really not. We are here to make ourselves better, not focus on improving others. You really do not know what others are going through. Some of it does come from severe ignorance.

Of course! And that's why I would never confront a person whom I see as having a double standard, dressing one way and acting another. But that doesn't mean that I won't tell my children that it is a double standard and that I see it as being wrong. Because my children need to know that it is wrong. Explainable maybe, but wrong.

In the other side of the coin, it also puts us in a hard position in other ways. As I've mentioned many times on this forum, my husband comes from a LWMO family, and by LW I mean very (some of his grandparents and aunts and uncles aren't Frum at all). They are respectful of us, but they also challenge us often when we cannot or will not do what they want us to do. Now many years, the family takes a house in a vacation spot along the beach, and they want us to come so that thy can spend some time with us and our kids. At this point in time we are okay with it, as my children are little and can go in their bathing suits, and my husband doesn't go, and if I go I go dressed completely Tzniusly. But in a few years, my DD will need to wear Tznius clothing to the beach, and I probably won't want my son to be exposed to the people there, and I know that my in-laws will not be happy about it. If they see Chassidish or Yeshivish people there not dressed appropriately, you better believe that we will hear about it from my in-laws! And you know what? My in-laws are actually smart enough to know that something is off there! And I have to explain to them that this is not consistent with what we believe in.

And BTW, I have to explain the same thing to them about my relatives who live the life of a Frum Jew, but are in trouble with the law. I tell that that this is not something that we condone, and is not consistent with the beliefs of a Frum person.

return2You

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 5:44 pm

out-of-towner wrote:

Calling out specific people to your children is Lashon Hara and totally a double standard if you consider yourself a frum, Torah-abiding Jew.