Vent: tznius at the pool

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:36 am

amother wrote:

May you never know the pain of being forced to live a life you don't believe in due to incredible pressure from a family and community which are enmeshed with your personal decisions.

May you never know the fear of losing everything you have built your whole life on.

Some people break free, some people don't have enough emotional strength and fortitude to. Some people would rather live this way than face the immense consequences.

Give people some slack.

See my edit.

I'm not saying they are bad people, or that I can't see why they would feel a need to be dishonest about their real religious observance.

But - words have meanings. And just like with anything else, having an understandable motive can only explain hypocrisy - it doesn't magically turn it into something else.

amother

Turquoise

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:41 am

When a woman who double covers and looks the part goes to a place like Miami which is full of other heimish people and sits by the mixed pool in a bikini, it's plain Strange. The contrast between her every day attire and vacation attire is wierd. Most people dress a bit differently on vacation, if someone feels the need to be so reblious (because in those circles it is rebellious) it's sad, and a sign that they would love to break free from the shackles that bind them to their every day attire

Leahh

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:44 am

Victorious wrote:

Whatever is against Halacha is against Halacha... period. (and that may be defined differently by every Rav)

But don't think a chassidish women is hypocritical when she deviates from her regular external standards when on vacation... she is rather psychologically forced by culture ... community and family to behave and dress in a specific way when she is in town, even it does not match her believes or desires.

you wouldn't believe the internal struggles these women experience on a daily basis having to live their double lives...

In your first line you write that halacha is defined differently by every rav. But then you go on to say it's ok for a chassidush woman (btw I have seen it by mon-chassidush men and woman too) todress differently when on vacation because of the struggles she has when back home.
If she is living that lifestyle then her rav holds its halacha and that would make it halacha for her when she's on vacation to.
You're post is contradictory to itself and confusing.

amother

Orange

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:44 am

PinkFridge wrote:

And I appreciate what those benefits might be for her and her family.
But someone who can say, when in Willi dress like Willi and I mean the full nine yards, but when I go OOT I can expose a tefach and elbow is not clear on something. Sure, she may have learned the halachos and feels perfectly fine dressing so dramatically differently while on vacation, but the disconnect between the two is so major that she's living a lie.

Two points:

1. Theres lots of Orthoprax people around and have been for a long time, as written about in magazines for years. They dont believe.

2. Would it be better for anyone if people like these went totally OTD and joined Footsteps, and the like, and brought huge heartache and shame to their parents, etc? Thes epeople are still keeping Shabbos and kosher, I imagine, no matter how dreadful their behavior is to some here.

amother

Olive

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:46 am

Hi OP, don't know if you are still reading this. I used to be very similar to you so I understand you completely. But then my son went OTD and humbled me and I am much better for it in terms of how accepting I am of others. Soon it will be the three weeks in which we mourn our bais hamikdash which was destroyed because of sinaas chinam. So I am focusing on that now and trying to work on myself instead of pointing a finger at others.
Writing vents about others doesn't really do me any good and I don't think it helped you either.
May you never be humbled like I was, OP.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:57 am

Leahh wrote:

Look, I feel for her and others. It's a big problem when one's rav's standards are not something one can live by. But someone who feels the disconnect but still chooses to stay in the community needs real clarity about halacha. That some rav somewhere will say something for his community doesn't mean that it's lechatchila the best thing for everyone to do. Maybe the barometer should be, if I didn't have to live here, where would I be able to express myself best as a growing, halachic, consistent Jew? If it's a community with the tefach above, etc., great! But don't be superficial in making such decisions. Learn, ask, discuss.

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

Two points:

1. Theres lots of Orthoprax people around and have been for a long time, as written about in magazines for years. They dont believe.

Orthoprax doesn't imply inconsistent behavior. Choosing to do something for reasons other than religious belief, but still genuinely doing it, is different from pretending to do something but actually not doing it when people aren't looking.

Quote:

2. Would it be better for anyone if people like these went totally OTD and joined Footsteps, and the like, and brought huge heartache and shame to their parents, etc? Thes epeople are still keeping Shabbos and kosher, I imagine, no matter how dreadful their behavior is to some here.

Did anyone imply that would be the better option? Scratching Head

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 11:59 am

amother wrote:

Two words: informed decision. There is a world of difference between truly thinking Orthoprax people and people who haven't thought carefully about what mesorah and halacha mean, and who aren't clear on the difference between community standards and halacha. (Not that anyone on this thread is in the latter category, but I hope you all know what I mean.)

Victorious

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:02 pm

My point is when a Chassidush (or otherwise) woman believes differently than her community but still in range of halacha- and she can have a rav she consults with that's out of her community. She will still play her part conforming to all extremities when she is seen by people who know her.... very sad and unfortunate that many many women can not live life according to their believes, even it's Al puh Torah...

Leahh wrote:

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:02 pm

amother wrote:

I understand you were responding to a different post, but does this apply to the OP as well? Do you believe that a woman who dresses in a hat and seams but on vacation by the pool wears short sleeves is Orthoprax?

amother

Purple

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:03 pm

amother wrote:

Op checking in, I'm sorry for what you are going through. Hashem should spare you from any more tzaar and thank you for your bracha.

You're right about the 3 weeks... I thought the vent would help but it just made things worse.

Chayalle

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:05 pm

amother wrote:

I'm not the OP...but there does seem to be a disconnect between her regular and vacation dress.

flowerpower

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:13 pm

amother wrote:

This is just a vent as I know that nothing could be done at this point. I was at the pool in another state on a vacation. There was a frum lady at the pool. She would not swim with men or boys in the pool. Yet she had no problem walking around with short sleeves in front of my husband and older son. She also sat with her elbows and knees totally exposed at the pool in front of other men. How can someone always covers everything act like this.
I just don't get it. Why the double standard. Please explain it to me because it's really bothering me. Why is it ok to act differently when you are on vacation than when you are in Brooklyn???

Ok. Vent over. (but not feeling much better) Confused

Many people think that if they go on vacation hashem stays behind. I go a lot to water parks. I see many times modern people in the park with a long sleeve two piece swim dresses and really am impressed.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:13 pm

Victorious wrote:

And my hat is, figuratively, of course, off to her for finding a rav to guiding her. This is a complicated derech to follow but if she has a rav to bounce things off of and who will reliably clarify baby and bathwater, she'll manage to live her life with some level of consistency.

imasoftov

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:16 pm

amother wrote:

You expected the woman to act differently based solely on external factors and you're scandalized that she didn't.

You expected us all to commiserate with you and express our outrage too but we didn't and so you will never vent here again.

Hmmm... Shabbatiscoming was spot on about expectations...

Either way, please clarify: you really thought we would immediately chime in and passionately say, "You are so right! How dare people do differently than what you expect them to do! I suggest you call the Va'ad Hatzniyus and report this woman! Maybe also her daughters' school so they should know what a danger she is!"

What exactly were you expecting us to say?

The hashgacha could also be pulled from the hotel and its surviving competitors could institute modesty patrols.

amother

Orange

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:27 pm

ora_43 wrote:

HUH? Since when do Orthoprax people keep all the Mitzvos outside of their frum neighborhood, and the only difference between them and believers is their belief?

I dont think so.

To me Orthoprax means, people who dont believe in Yiddishkeit. They keep what they want. where they want, when they want, for the reasons they want.

imasinger

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:30 pm

I'm a little puzzled by something.

The idea that this kind of venting is halachically appropriate.

How is "venting" about someone else doing something wrong okay? (And I'll hold for the sake of argument, that if one follows chassidish levush about tznius, that it is probably wrong to dress differently at the pool, especially when there are other observant men around, but who doesn't have their challenges?)

Isn't it leading oneself and others not to be d"lz?

Why wouldn't such a perspective be discouraged on a frum site?

ETA:. I just saw that OP came back and agreed that maybe both the timing and the idea of venting was not helpful. Thank you, OP. And to the amother who prompted that response, may you soon know relief from your tzaar.

Last edited by imasinger on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:33 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Bronze

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:31 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

Major disconnect here.
I appreciate how a woman in say, Willi, may have learned in BY once upon a time that we have to keep knees, elbows, collarbone, hair, and possibly feet covered. She may find it jarring and oppressive to have more chumras than that, e.g. seamed stockings, no shoeties, what have you, but as mistyrose says, will live with the disconnect to get the benefits of living in Willi or wherever. And I appreciate what those benefits might be for her and her family.
But someone who can say, when in Willi dress like Willi and I mean the full nine yards, but when I go OOT I can expose a tefach and elbow is not clear on something. Sure, she may have learned the halachos and feels perfectly fine dressing so dramatically differently while on vacation, but the disconnect between the two is so major that she's living a lie.

Big difference from someone who dresses formally, never wears denim or sneakers and then in the mountain or OOT wears denim or slinkies, and sneakers and a pretied that covers everything. Because she's being consistent about the basic halachos she believes in.

One of the women might consider finding a new community for her sake and her kids' sake.

Chassidish women in Williamsburg are not Bais Yaakov graduates. BY schools for the most part are yeshivish. The only Williamsburg girls school using the term BY is Bais Yaakov Adas Yereim of Vien and most people would not consider that a true BY school. Besides, most Viener graduates do not wear seams (neither do most Chassidish women). Just clarifying for accuracy's sake.

Blessing1

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:44 pm

You can give people lots of slack, but some things are just a matter of right & wrong.
Why did it become so "right" to literally go against Halacha when on vacation?
I saw it in the bungalow colony too, that people leave God in the city. I saw afew very obviously satmer families, their big girls wearing short sleeves & short socks!!! What are you teaching your kids here????? That when you go away you can do whatever you want????
such people have no yiras shamayim, and probably lack self esteem.
But again, it's none of our business how other people behave but it's just bothersome that it has become the "norm."

Last edited by Blessing1 on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:49 pm; edited 2 times in total

heidi

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:46 pm

amother wrote:

I'm going to weigh in in support of the OP.
I go to a mixed pool with my child in my frummy bathing suit. There are lots of women from my modern Orthodox community there. Some are dressed like me. Some are wearing long shorts and a t shirt and a baseball cap with their ponytail out. But not one of them is dressed inconsistently with how she dresses "in real life".
The one woman there in a bathing suit and no hair covering who always wears a shaitel and tzinyus clothing makes me crazy. She's there with her husband, who's swimming with all the ladies in bikinis, but wears a bekeshe on Shabbos. I wouldn't be friends with her bcz. I find her soooo hypocritical.