Vent: tznius at the pool

MamaBear

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:55 pm

I personally am not consistent with tsnius "rules." I simply believe in dressing modestly. Sometimes my own personal interpretation of this means you may see me one day in a sheitel, high neck loose t-shirt and midi skirt. Other times, the sleeves may be a bit shorter, there may be some hair intentionally left out of a hat etc

Please don't think if you see me not dressed yeshivish, that I'm somehow cheating. I'm not. I'm in line with my own beliefs, we have just never discussed them together.

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 12:57 pm

amother wrote:

HUH? Since when do Orthoprax people keep all the Mitzvos outside of their frum neighborhood, and the only difference between them and believers is their belief?

I dont think so.

To me Orthoprax means, people who dont believe in Yiddishkeit. They keep what they want. where they want, when they want, for the reasons they want.

There are definitely orthoprax people do keep the mitzvot everywhere, actually.

Orthoprax people who keep mitzvot at random are inconsistent, but not necessarily hypocrites.

But if someone orthoprax always keeps mitzvot when others are looking, and gives every appearance of fully observing mitzvot, but doesn't bother when nobody is looking - yes, of course that's also hypocrisy.

heidi

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:01 pm

MamaBear wrote:

Exactly. But you do both things in your own community. That is not hypocritical. Dressing one way "in public" always and another way completely "on vacation" is hypocritical.

cnc

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:04 pm

I went to an indoor water park recently .
There was a chassidish woman with her sons and husband there. She was a wearing a bathing suit and a tiny cover up that came to her upper thigh and was totally cut out in the back.

I wouldn't have glanced twice except that she called to her sons in Yiddish..her sons came and they were literally more covered up than her. Wearing bathing suits almost till their knees and rash guards. Same goes for her husband.

It didn't bother me I just found it strange.Laughable. I'm not sure why....maybe it was the contrast between her and her covered up sons with their krazeldik payos?

Whatever.....

amother

Orange

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:07 pm

Blessing1 wrote:

You can give people lots of slack, but some things are just a matter of right & wrong.
Why did it become so "right" to literally go against Halacha when on vacation?
I saw it in the bungalow colony too, that people leave God in the city. I saw afew very obviously satmer families, their big girls wearing short sleeves & short socks!!! What are you teaching your kids here????? That when you go away you can do whatever you want????
such people have no yiras shamayim, and probably lack self esteem.
But again, it's none of our business how other people behave but it's just bothersome that it has become the "norm."

Something doesnt sound right. Satmar peoople dont go to a bungalow colony, and dress very differently than others there. It must have been a colony of all the same type.

cnc

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:07 pm

heidi wrote:

Exactly. But you do both things in your own community. That is not hypocritical. Dressing one way "in public" always and another way completely "on vacation" is hypocritical.

I agree. Also, it's one thing if someone takes off their seamed stockings on vacation or their double covering...but to go from that to a bathing suit...is a bit of a jump.

In any case, the poster from Willi that went to Cancun gave me a new perspective.

MamaBear

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:09 pm

heidi wrote:

Exactly. But you do both things in your own community. That is not hypocritical. Dressing one way "in public" always and another way completely "on vacation" is hypocritical.

Many people in my own community only see me sporadically. They may have never seen me showing any hair in day to day life. So if they did on vacation, they would be shocked. The woman in the original situation may not be as consistent in her day to day life as the OP believes.

Furthermore, I find the halachos of tsnius a huge challenge. If you see anyone who dresses differently on vacation, don't look down on them, there's a likelihood there's some sort of struggle they're going through.

Last edited by MamaBear on Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total

Another mom

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:19 pm

Jeanette wrote:

I'm actually pretty shocked that your husband and son were anywhere near the pool. Completely inappropriate!!! And why is the onus always on the woman to jump out whenever a man puts in an appearance, rather than the men skedaddling if there are women in the vicinity?

Just venting.

Who said the men were frum -- were they?

flowerpower

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:22 pm

amother wrote:

Something doesnt sound right. Satmar peoople dont go to a bungalow colony, and dress very differently than others there. It must have been a colony of all the same type.

I agree. How do you know it's satmer? Anyways, majority dresses the same as they dress in the city. So before you start the accusions on a public board, make sure to check your facts.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:23 pm

We're all free to discuss whatever we want, but I'm surprised at the amount of righteous judgmentalism here.

I think it is really shallow to freely call people hypocrites and judge solely on the basis of external appearance.

You don't know these women, you don't know their beliefs, you don't know why they're doing the things they do. They may be following a thought out approach consistent with their beliefs.

Just because someone wears certain clothing, doesn't mean you can fling them into a narrow little box and call any behavior they do that doesn't fit with your image of what they're 'supposed' to be doing hypocritical.

How judgmental and simplistic.

amother

Royalblue

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:26 pm

My sil wears a bikini on vacation. She doesn't think she is doing something wrong. Some truly believe that if they are away they are free to dress that way. Sad but I try hard not to judge. Maybe one day they will see what is right and what is not.

Goldie613

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:27 pm

amother wrote:

Ok ladies. I really have no problem with her swimming but I would have expected more from her to at least cover up better.
I guess I'm expecting too much.

A thought here - and obviously I don't know the woman so I have no way of knowing if this is accurate - could it be that she dresses the frummer way that you saw to go along with her husband' values, or even as a matter of dressing in the tznius standards of her community, but that isn't really the way that she "holds"? Which would mean that she wasn't being a hypocrite, but rather she was being herself, while most of the time she covers up more to appease others.

Sorry you had a hard time with this - sometimes seeing others do things differently can make us blink and rethink things we do for ourselves and our families. I think what a lot of us are saying though is you should try to judge her al kaf zechus and assume that she wasn't trying to do anything that was actually "bad".

Hope the rest of your summer is going better Hug

Goldie613

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:30 pm

amother wrote:

Ok never mind. I thought I'm allowed to vent here. Never again! Moving on....

Of course you can vent!!! Hug

We all need a chance to let off steam, we're just giving you our takes on the situation, but I'm sorry if they're upsetting to you.

heidi

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:31 pm

amother wrote:

For me,at least, I think it comes from working really hard to keep halacha as I understand it.
Maybe I'm jealous of those who take the "easy way out?"

Jeanette

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:39 pm

A sin is not more sinful just because a satmar does it. If I go to a movie it's fine. If a satmar goes to a movie, whoa, stop the presses!

So then we get that what they did isn't inherently that bad, but not consistent with who they are or being from Willy or whatever. So we aren't faulting them for what they do but for the fact that they wouldn't do it in Williamsburg. If they lived somewhere else it would be ok. How fair is that? If you think they should "just move", well really that's up to them, and the decision isn't always so simple.

Blessing1

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:44 pm

Sorry, I didn't make assumptions that they're satmer families, I know for a fact they are. It's a big colony with a big mix of people & lots of satmer families. I guess they think that because there are all types of people there they can give a different picture of who they really are.

amother

Papaya

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:45 pm

Blessing1 wrote:

How do you who they really are?

sneakermom

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:50 pm

It's not for us to judge other people. Period.

But let's just acknowledge that seeing a chassidishe woman step out of her usual chassidishe persona and easily slip into a modern or secular persona is shocking.

And when we see something shocking we try to make sense of it.

Hence this discussion.

cnc

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 1:51 pm

amother wrote:

How do you who they really are?

I don't get what your question is.
Apparently they are not who they really represent themselves to be.

My question is how do you explain the dress code change to your children if they're old enough to understand the hypocrisy.

I chose to send to a school that's a bit more to the left of my family because the other school's dress code is not one that I would follow when my kids are out of school. I don't think that makes such good chinuch when there are school rules and home rules.

ora_43

Thu, Jul 28 2016, 2:06 pm

What bothers me about behavior like OP describes is this -

People who pretend to be "frummer" than they actually are tend to see themselves as the victims/the influenced - "I'm under so much pressure," "I can't be my real self because... " etc.

What they tend not to recognize is that they are also creating social pressure. Just because they aren't doing it intentionally, doesn't mean they aren't doing it.

Every one of us plays a part in creating other people's views of what humanity is, what society is, what frum people are, what chassidic/MO/whatever Jews are... Whether you want to or not. And not just when it comes to religion; when it comes to everything.

I'm not saying we bear responsibility for other people's choices, or for their mistaken perceptions. But we do have an obligation to at least not be deliberately dishonest.

"Well, all I did was to always, 100% of the time wear 100% frummie clothing in my frum neighborhood, solely because I want the people around me to think I'm a frum Jew - I didn't actually say anything to you personally about my beliefs" - give. me. a. break. When clothing gets absurdly specific enough that a group uses it to self-identify, *and you buy into that by deliberately using that clothing to identify as a group member, every single time that certain people are watching* you're saying something whether you say it with words or not.