Spinoff "why do you want moshiach" -- not sure I do??

myself

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:56 pm

According to many sources the world will pretty much stay the way it is, just without all the evil and pain. Of course there will be a Beis Hamikdash, but not everyone will be living near the Beis Hamikdash, hence the mitzva of Ola Regel.

So all those fearing a life that goes back to the times of the first Beis Hamikdash need not fear. AFAIK the world will never go back to that sort of existence.

I imagine humanity will always stay the same. We do need to remember though that we are so far removed from it all that it is beyond the scope of our imagination.

I guess that's what emunah is all about, believing that it will be better and more fulfilling than anything our limited minds can envision.

amother

Maroon

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 5:57 pm

amother wrote:

In the "why do you want Moshiach?" thread, someone posted:

Quote:

So the whole world will know who the true Creator of the world. So all those of other religions will see the stupidity of their beliefs. Then true peace will reign. No more war, murder, violence. All this I want for the glory of Hashem.

My FIRST problem with this is that I don't feel threatened by the mere existence of other beliefs. There are 7 billion people on this planet, and the variety of religions is (to me) a product of humanity itself, with its kaleidoscope of inner lives. Kind of like art, I might not "get" you, but I can respect or even appreciate your perspective.

I don't think other religions are stupid, or that people who don't believe in Yiddishkeit are stupid or evil. Many people live happy, productive, GOOD lives that increase the level of goodness and happiness and love in the world.

SECOND, I doubt that without religion (or with everyone keeping a single religion), that "true peace will reign". We are HUMAN.

Which brings me to my biggest fear about Moshiach: it seems to strip us of everything that makes us fundamentally human.

So many descriptions of Zman Moshiach sound downright dystopian, with everyone being shiny happy people who do nothing but learn Torah all day. Even the rationalist approach, that Moshiach won’t be a supernatural utopia where cotton candy grows on trees (practically the way I learned about it in elementary school, along with classmates “calling dibs” on which non-Jewish janitors at school they wanted to be their personal servants. Horrible.), but just a theocracy under a king descended from Dovid HaMelech, makes me deeply uncomfortable.

This is clearly because I am utterly sunk in the Galus mindset. I guess I don't feel Hashem's pain enough, or I feel like the pain that I and other people feel is just built into the world and not necessarily unnatural, as much as it is truly painful.

So Moshiach is like death for me -- I can trust that it will be good, but I don't necessarily look forward to it.

Do you believe in the notion that when Moshiach will come there will be no yetzer hora??? meaning you naturally won't be thinking evil things and we'll be able to live peacefully with one another as there will be no evil inclination telling us otherwise. There will be no hatred and jealousy which stems from giving in to our yetzer hora.
From your post above it seems you need to strengthen your emuna and bitachon in Hashem. Then most of your issues will disappear.

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 6:12 pm

amother wrote:

Oh gosh I feel like I'm digging a hole for myself getting involved here....who is to say there won't and aren't many right ways and religious paths? Who is to say that as long as we are all headed in the right direction we can't be diverse and interesting and quirky along the way. I believe the right path is exhaulting the One Above. When Mashiach comes who says we can't all be individual weirdos vouching for the same cause.

I like what you're saying. The truth is, we just don't know. All we know is, whatever it is, it will be good.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 6:13 pm

amother wrote:

Many great leaders in Jewish thought have had the same questions. This is not about emuna and bitachon, at least not of the blind variety. These are the questions many smart, thinking individuals have when thinking about what they've been taught about Mashiach.

greenfire

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 7:15 pm

http://www.aish.com/h/9av/oal/48961756.html

cute story regarding moshiach not coming

Code:

The traveler's sobbing was so intense that it awoke Berel the innkeeper. His wife was very nervous. "Why is our guest crying so bitterly in the middle of the night?" she asked. "Something must have happened!"

Berel entered the guestroom to find a simple Jew, dressed like a peasant, shoeless, sitting on the floor, crying bitter tears over the Jewish exile from Israel. [This man was really a pious chassidic master, traveling "incognito" to learn of the situation of the world. Every midnight (besides Shabbat and festivals) he would arise to bemoan the destruction of our Holy Temples.]

"Why are you crying?" asked Berel. "What disaster has befallen you?"

The rabbi replied simply, "I cry over our Temple's destruction, and I beseech the Almighty to bring the Messiah who will return us to the Holy Land."

Berel was relieved, "Is that it?! Then please keep your wailing down so that you don't disturb the other guests!" With that Berel returned to his bedroom and informed his wife of the cause of the disturbance.

Five minutes later there was a knock on the rabbi's door. It was Berel again. "My wife would like to know if the Messiah comes and brings us back to the Land of Israel, will we be allowed to take our chickens with us?"

The rabbi was taken aback by the question. "Chickens? As far as I am aware, it doesn't say anything about chickens. You might have to leave your chickens here when the Messiah comes."

Berel duly informed his wife.

Five minutes later, another knock. Berel: "My wife asks you to please not pray anymore for the Messiah to come. We are doing fine here and would prefer to stay with our chickens."

At that the rabbi became agitated, "What do you mean 'fine'? Don't you know how precarious our exile is? At any moment the Cossacks could arrive and take your chickens, your wife, all your money and even your life! Aren't we better off in our Promised Land?"

To Berel, the rabbi's words made sense. But he still had to inform his wife.

Five minutes later, another knock. "My wife requests that you pray for the Messiah to come and take the Cossacks to the Land of Israel -- so we can stay here with our chickens!" (heard from Rabbi Yisroel Reisman)

marina

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 7:27 pm

amother wrote:

Exactly. If there was 100% proof, we wouldn't have bechirah. And that's exactly why it is brought down that we will have extremely limited bechira once Mashiach comes - because our knowledge of G-d will be so great we will practically be compelled to do as He says.

People always say this and I find it to be unsupported by the chumash itself. Adam and Chava literally lived in gan eden, right? And they still managed to sin. The generation that left egypt saw open miracles and heard God speak to them, right? And lol, then they made a golden calf.

The level of proof does not correlate with the level of choice.

And that makes sense in other spheres as well. We know that smoking causes cancer, and yet plenty of people smoke.

marina

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 7:34 pm

Finally, I find that prominent chassidic ideas lead to the conclusion that moshiach is not that desirable.

I cannot tell you how many times I've learned that the entire purpose of the world is to make a dira b'tachtonim, like someone upthread said, a place for God to dwell in our world. So when Moshiach comes, that mission will be done. All the nitzitzos will be revealed. Our spiritual struggles will be over. Whatever. And what will be the point of continuing the world at that point? The world will just exist without a purpose? Does not sound likely.

More likely is that when the little guy in the computer game finishes the mission, the player turns off the game and moves on. Sad

Just some apikorsus for your tishabav Smile

amother

Maroon

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 7:43 pm

amother wrote:

What you're saying comes from a lack of believing that Hashem is the Kol Yochol.
We say/sing at the end of the pesach seder Chad Gadya, At the end Hashem will take the knife from the shochet and kill the satan the yetzer hora. We learn in Breishis by the sin of Adam and Chava, all the sudden they felt empty, lacking... they needed something to cover them. That's when the yetzer hora appeared and they became aware of the earthly inclinations, they weren't protected anymore because of their sin. That's where Chazal teach us that when Moshiach will come, Hashem will get rid of the y"h, there will be no evil on earth. Everyone will still think and do things their way but with no evil and no evil in mind. So things will be good, actually great but we will not have the desire to sin, it won't occur to us to sin. Hashem will allow us to rule the nations who are left without any issues. The nations will be happy to serve us. With emuna and bitachon we won't have any questions or fears.

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 8:09 pm

marina wrote:

Just some apikorsus for your tishabav Smile

The struggle will be over, the world will have reached its goal, and there will be a period of reward that will last forever.

Just some hope and encouragement for your Tisha B'Av.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 9:27 pm

amother wrote:

Aha. My views are based on what the Rambam says - do you think he had a lack of belief that Hashem is the Kol Yochol?

There are big conflicts in machshava between the Rambam, Chassidish hashkafa, and others. Just because I follow one path, does not mean I am lacking in emunah and bitachon because I didn't arrive at the same conclusion as you.

What you are saying is meforshim. They are not necessarily things which are universally agreed on. Frankly, I find it quite amusing that you think that someone who does not prescribe to the same ideas set forth by some meforshim is lacking in emunah and bitachon. There are plenty of other valid views.

There are many things which are not as straightforward as you may have learned them to be. For example, you know how the prevailing thought today is that Mashiach MUST come before the year 6000?

According to the Rambam, that is not true. It can come by the year 6000, or the year 27000. And that opinion is just as valid as the one that insists that it must come by the year 6000.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:01 pm

marina wrote:

Just some apikorsus for your tishabav Smile

And yet, chassidus believes in tikkun olam, does it not?

The world has definitely gotten a lot less barbaric and a lot more refined as a whole. Women are not property and slaves are not morally acceptable. More and more people are shying away from eating animal flesh, and hunting, war and bloodshed is no longer considered the height of masculinity.

Does it not therefore logically follow, according to Chassidus that these practices - lashings, death penalty, animal sacrifices - would be not be applicable in an improved world?