Spinoff "why do you want moshiach" -- not sure I do??

amother

Burlywood

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:16 pm

amother wrote:

I don't recall saying Moshiach is not coming. I'm just pointing out that you may be surprised by what he brings. It may be something different than what you were told or what you believe. Then all those reasons why you wanted him to come will be irrelevant.

The only reason I want him to come is so that I can see H-Shem in everything. Once you understand H-Shem is truly behind EVERYTHING, and it's for our very best, then that gives you a certain amount of peace. There will still be non jews and Jews. The non jews will have their 7 Mitzvot and we will have our 613. It just the belief in ONE H-Shem

In the beginning life will not be changed too much. We will go to Eretz Israel, we will have Bet Hamikdash, and korbanot, but we will still drive cars, have our tech devices, have to cook and clean and work. From what I understood from shiurim that I heard on the subject it will be like this the first 40 yrs. Except there won't be illness, death, hate, etc.

Mitzvot will not have reward as they do now, because it will be common sense to do them.

I heard an example of this that made sense to me. Would you put your hand into fire? Sure you have the freedom to do so, but why would you? That is how doing averot will be like once Moshiach comes. Doing Mitzvot will be common sense without thinking twice.

On the other hand we won't have the same amount of reward as we do now.
For this reason, we can't give up the opportunity now of earning our portion in the world to come. Once Moshiach comes we can't earn it anymore. It's automatically given to us.

Sorry I don't know enough to show sources to this, just listen to a lot of shiurim.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:21 pm

amother wrote:

Part of emunah is accepting that there are concepts that are not within your understanding.
This thread demonstrates what can occur when you refuse to acknowledge that you may not understand everything and especially when you believe that your understanding of what is considered good vs bad trumps the understanding of chachomim who spend their lives immersed in Torah from where true knowledge emanates.

I think that what this thread demonstrates most is what can occur when you refuse to acknowledge that your understanding of Mashiach and its ramifications is not the only way, and there are chochomim who spent their lives immersed in Torah from where true knowledge emanates who believe entirely differently than you, and they were NOT lacking in emunah or bitachon.

There is more than one way. What do you think shivim panim laTorah means? Is it just some nice saying with no application?

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:28 pm

amother wrote:

I think that what this thread demonstrates most is what can occur when you refuse to acknowledge that your understanding of Mashiach and its ramifications is not the only way, and there are chochomim who spent their lives immersed in Torah from where true knowledge emanates who believe entirely differently than you, and they were NOT lacking in emunah or bitachon.

There is more than one way. What do you think shiva panim laTorah means? Is it just some nice saying with no application?

Shivim.

amother

Scarlet

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:38 pm

amother wrote:

I can accept the fact that I may not truly understand what is considered good vs bad. I also believe that there is SomeOne that does. So I don't worry myself.
But as you said, shivim panim latorah.
You are entitled to your opinion.

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:39 pm

amother wrote:

The thread can demonstrate more than one thing...shivim panim la'Imamother? LOL

I think it demonstrates the tragedy that occurs when people worship their own intelligence so much that they fool themselves into a lack of belief, when really it's their own hubris that's talking. And the futility of trying to get through to those people.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:40 pm

marina wrote:

People always say this and I find it to be unsupported by the chumash itself. Adam and Chava literally lived in gan eden, right? And they still managed to sin. The generation that left egypt saw open miracles and heard God speak to them, right? And lol, then they made a golden calf.

The level of proof does not correlate with the level of choice.

And that makes sense in other spheres as well. We know that smoking causes cancer, and yet plenty of people smoke.

Okay, you're right. I didn't take cognitive dissonance into account.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

The thread can demonstrate more than one thing...shivim panim la'Imamother? LOL

Of course it can - I wrote I think that is what it demonstrates most. Jmo.

If your last paragraph is referring to me, everything I've said on this thread is what I've learned in a mainstream Bais Yaakov seminary with a choshuv chareidi principal who has been a rav in both in chutz la'aretz and in Eretz Yisroel.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:43 pm

amother wrote:

It is not my opinion.

It is the Rambam's opinion.

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 10:51 pm

amother wrote:

No, I wasn't talking about you. There are in fact different understandings of zman moshiach. I may disagree with you but the main thing is the same: moshiach will usher in a time of ultimate goodness, however that manifests. It's those who think they know better than G-d what's good and what isn't, based on novels and social mores that never stay the same from generation to generation, that I meant.

If you're the one who said there won't be techiyas hameisim, that I do take issue with, because that's one of the Rambam's own 13 ani maamins.

amother

Bronze

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 11:03 pm

amother wrote:

When did someone say there won't be techiyas hameisim? One poster said that techiyas hameisim may not immediately follow Mashiach's arrival. Is that what you are referring to?

amother

Blush

Sun, Aug 14 2016, 11:39 pm

Bronze, I'm on your side. I just am pained by the wilful lack of emunah and intellect/ego worship that I see here.

I don't think it's awful if someone has their own idealized understanding of zman moshiach, based on meforshim and midroshim. Even if they believe cakes will grow from the ground or the like, there are sources for it.

But the fact that there are those who decide that they know better and the geulah isn't something to anticipate with hope...that is a tragedy we can all mourn for.

amother

Gold

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 10:01 am

imasoftov wrote:

Furthermore, the ani maamin's are not "Rambam's own". The author is unknown.

(new poster)
I think she meant, For the people who are quoting Rambam--he said this too.

Regardless of whether he wrote the ani maamin's, he adopted them as his view that they are the basis for being a believing Jew

mommy3b2c

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 10:49 am

amother wrote:

I have trouble thinking about implementing the death penalty for doing a malacha on shabbos, having a rapist have to marry her raper, eesha sota, karbanot and other things from biblical days. So I wonder if mashiach would truly be that reality.

Wha makes you think that moshiach will bring us back to the dark ages?

Moshiach will bring good, not bad!

amother

Cerulean

Mon, Aug 15 2016, 11:07 am

amother wrote:

Um, all those things are straight out in the Chumash.

We have Torah Shel Baal Peh, you can't just read the Chumash and think that is halacha l'maasa.

"Eye for an Eye" we monetary compensate damages we do not inflict the damage on to the perpetrator. Just an example.

I also find it interesting everyone is worried about punishments. When Moshiach comes there will be no Chait as the Yetzer Harah will be removed so there will be no punishment.