WWYD crisis paying tuition

amother

Crimson

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 11:19 pm

amother wrote:

Agree on one hand DrMom, but on the other....

The school is already running and paying these. Adding another child to the class does not raise the cost of heating the building, hiring teachers, or custodians.

Yes I should pay the max possible. But even from a business sense, don't airlines sell empty seats for dirt cheap sometimes because it's more money than they would get from flying with empty rows? Don't dept stores sell excess merchandise for cheap because otherwise they are discarding it?

They have a desk for my child. They have books for my child. But because I can't afford to pay the asking price, they'd rather have them sit empty... maybe so I'll stop paying my rent and be homeless but paying tuition??

I imagine they are afraid of setting a bad precedent or of letting us get away with something. But does that fear justify my kids not getting a proper education?

Isn't there another way of ensuring taht all parents are paying as much as they can towards the costs?

This is aside for the responsibility a community has for all children in said community, especially the ppoor. Judaism does not look down upon the poor or blame them for their poverty, unlike American sensibilities. We recognize that Hashem created haves and have nots, and that some of what the haves have is meant for them to support their brothers and sisters.

What will be in the end... who knows.

OP, there is an excellent Jewish homeschooling email network if that is the route you need to go down.

At some point, adding another student doesn't add too much to the cost of running a school. (It's not free - think of insurance etc.)

But who's to say which child is "free"? At a certain point, classes with lots of "free" kids get too big and have to be split, or everyone's education will suffer. Who decides?

Of course you are working off the assumption that everyone else is paying full tuition and that full tuition covers the cost of educating each child. Sometimes it does, sometimes it's even more, to cover scholarships, and sometimes tuition income doesn't cover the budget. Ask your school which scenario is at work. Ask what percentage parents pay in full. See the problem?

No one gets rich off schools. If they do, you have a major problem on your hands. The schools I know spend 85-90 percent of the budget on payroll, and squeeze every penny till it screams. That doesn't mean parents have it easy. Only that money has to come from somewhere.

I think that the fundamental problem here is thinking of schools as "them." We are the schools, it's our community, our children, our problem, and we have to work together.

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Aug 21 2016, 11:58 pm

amother wrote:

This is off topic. And I feel for OP.

But I'm a teacher. And trust me every single kid (even the most perfect and smartest one) makes a difference to the class. I feel it when even one kid is absent - sure it means having to catch them up, but what a breeze my day suddenly becomes.

Of course, this is assuming your child's classroom is run like mine, where every kid receives individual attention and is catered to, to the best of my ability. And isn't that what you want your children's teachers to be doing, instead of treating them like another anonymous passenger?

DrMom

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 1:01 am

amother wrote:

So why let in just one more child? Why not 3? or 10? or 50? At some point, the people who work their fingers to the bone to pay tuition are going to revolt when they realize that a small percentage of the parents are supporting a huge percentage of the rest of the students. Most people won't mind supporting a few students, but they will feel exploited if the proportions of non-paying students starts to get out of control. They will also resent the larger class sizes which translate into a poorer education for their own children.

amother wrote:

Yes I should pay the max possible. But even from a business sense, don't airlines sell empty seats for dirt cheap sometimes because it's more money than they would get from flying with empty rows? Don't dept stores sell excess merchandise for cheap because otherwise they are discarding it?

They have a desk for my child. They have books for my child. But because I can't afford to pay the asking price, they'd rather have them sit empty... maybe so I'll stop paying my rent and be homeless but paying tuition??

You don't understand basic economics like the law of supply & demand. If there are enough parents who can pay full tuition, then your child's desk and books will be sold off to someone who can pay them more money than what they are going to get from you.

amother wrote:

I imagine they are afraid of setting a bad precedent or of letting us get away with something. But does that fear justify my kids not getting a proper education?

Yes, this is a real concern. If parents know that the quoted tuition price is negotiable, they will negotiate it downwards.

amother wrote:

Isn't there another way of ensuring taht all parents are paying as much as they can towards the costs?

This is aside for the responsibility a community has for all children in said community, especially the ppoor. Judaism does not look down upon the poor or blame them for their poverty, unlike American sensibilities. We recognize that Hashem created haves and have nots, and that some of what the haves have is meant for them to support their brothers and sisters.

I don't know how your school calculates financial aid packages/tuition reductions. You must realize that in the end, someone has to pay the piper. If more students get tuition breaks, the full tuition price that others pay will go up. When setting its tuition and aid policies, the school must strike the right balance to suit the local economic demographics. Perhaps you are living in an area that is too expensive for your income?

Also, I am not sure that it is so simple as Hashem having "created haves and have nots." People also have to do hishtaldut, including careful, forward-thinking financial planning.

HappytoHS

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 4:26 am

amother wrote:

This is aside for the responsibility a community has for all children in said community

amother wrote:

OP, there is an excellent Jewish homeschooling email network if that is the route you need to go down.

*Disclaimer: Since I am not chassidish and have no knowledge of or experience with the chassidish school system, this post is addressed to parents in the non-chassidish school system.

I think it's time to change the way we view private Jewish schooling, as well as alternative educational options.

Gone are the days when not going to a Jewish school meant that, barring a miracle, a child would be lost to Yiddishkeit.

Gone also are the days when Jewish educators saw it as their sacred duty to educate to Torah every Jewish child who wanted to learn. Today, Jewish schools are businesses. Nothing more and nothing less. It's not the way it should be but it is the way it is. They try to have their cake and eat it too by running their schools like a private business with regard to things like acceptance and exclusion while simultaneously demanding automatic respect and the reverence due the kind of teacher that is, as the Torah describes, like a parent in the way he teaches the child and in his love for the child. That is a rare, rare bird today indeed. We would all do better to remove educators and administrators from the pedestals we have erroneously put them on, reserve the honor for those who earn it, and view Jewish schools just like any other business. If you like the service they provide, buy it. If you don't, take your patronage elsewhere. If you can’t afford it without serious damage to your quality of life or your physical or mental health or the happiness of your family…

That's where alternative educational options come in. Once you recognize that Jewish schooling is not what it once was and not what it was meant to be, you can view alternatives not as second best or a nebach choice, but a legitimate alternative option that might work for your family. Homeschooling is one option. But really homeschooling is a thousand different options because there are a thousand ways to homeschool. School-at-home is just one way. The great thing about homeschooling, which is to say education outside of a traditional school, is its flexibility. You can make it work for you. Co-ops are another option. Public schooling with a group of likeminded frum families for general studies and homeschooling or co-ops or tutors for kodesh is another option.

If you (general you) don’t know anything about homeschooling options learn about them by speaking to homeschoolers to see how it can be done and if you can make it work for you. If you think you have no options because you and your spouse both work, speak to families in your position – they exist! - who have found alternative educational options that work for their situation. (Remember to ask them how much money they save and how much less they need to earn by not paying for private school.) If it’s hard for you to do something so different and so far out of the box, speak to some of your neighbors and friends and relatives and I betcha you’d find at least a handful of likeminded people all thinking that they don’t want to be the only ones to do something different. Then do something different together. Just don’t say “but I can’t do that” or “that won’t work for me” without seriously considering it and looking into what it would really entail.

You have choices. You really don’t have to be a victim of the school system unless you choose to. Your kids will get a great education and your family will be ok. There’s more than one way to educate a child and you might even find a way that you like better than what you thought was the only way.

mandksima

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 7:02 am

This is such a sad thread as it brings back memories. I had the same problem 10 years ago. Our choice was public school or aliyah. With aliyah we even were eligible for special ed schools with no or low cost. Guess which road we took? I couldn't imagine our kids or our life if we would have stayed. I am grateful everyday for the push I got from Hashem. If not for high tuition prices, we would not have made aliyah when we did! It is easy to say everything Hashem does is for the best but when in America, everyone sees high tuition as a big problem. Finally, I can see how this particular high stress contributor was actually a wonderful gift and truly everything Hashem does is for the best. I wish more people would move here, especially when kids are young, before the larger school expenses occur. Unfortunately, like written in this thread already, people don't think of the big picture when thinking of their finances. Aliyah isn't all about saving tuition, of course, but that WAS the main factor for us at the time. THAT is why Hashem sent that dilemma to us.

BTW, my 9th grade daughter's technical school costs less than $300 for the year! My son's special ed school costs the same. Yes, other things are more expensive but those are things you can control more or less with the spending by living in a cheaper area or buying cheaper foods, etc. I think in today's day, money talks the most so Hashem gives us tests in that department quite a lot. I don't see why more people don't realize that tuition issues may be a push from Hashem to come home. The "cure" was created before the "illness!"

RachaelLeah

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 10:58 am

Think beyond school. It's not the be-all and end-all. Homeschooling can be an amazing option, and there are many ways to do it.

https://melamedacademy.com/ is a great new resource for virtual schooling of Judaics and General Studies. It takes a lot of the burden off the parents and can be a real save.

Virtual Public Schools are another option. Any child can get a full General Studies, Public School education through their computer, completely for free, funded by the state. A parent would then only need to supplement Judaics through tutors and online videos.

Also an option is to go to school for only Judaics - half a day, and half tuition. And to do Virtual School for General Studies.

There are lots of options, if you can think outside the box.

Homeschooling has been a blessing for my family. Feel free to pm if you'd like to discuss.

Last edited by RachaelLeah on Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:31 am; edited 1 time in total

SRS

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:23 am

amother wrote:

DrMom I actually agree with you almost 100% EXCEPT some people have almost a disability that they cannot do forward thinking and financial planning. But you see they are made that way, by Hashem, and He knows this. I have no solutions, it is the crisis of the generation

Those with the "disability" should not be allowed to make those of us without such a disability have to work the amount we are working, plan the way we are planning, forego the way are foregoing, because they can't be bothered to get their lives in order. Sorry. These fiscally inept people have free will too and instead of treating them like inept people, we should be handing them a Dave Ramsey book so they can get inspired by other inept people that managed to outgrow their disability.

amother

Chartreuse

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 11:33 am

SRS wrote:

Yes except you forget that a persons income comes from Hashem. And it is hard for an outsider to judge how much hishtadlut a person has done. You really don't know their struggle. It's a very very difficult problem. You should not have to work and forgo in a totally over the top way either. I can see both sides.

SRS

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 12:17 pm

amother wrote:

I did not forget that a person's income comes from Hashem. A person's talents and challenges also come for Hashem. It is our job to direct our talents and to face our challenges. If someone is fiscally inept, they need to find a system that helps them become for fiscally ept.

Surely no one goes grocery shopping, puts up a challah, and starts doing laundry 1 hour before Shabbos! No, some people start planning for the next shabbos at the conclusion of the last shabbos and other people run a marathon on Friday morning, afternoon, or 2 hours before shabbos. But, in the end, we all have to make shabbos.

While providing opportunities for Jewish education is a responsibility of a community, parents must step up to the plate.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 1:58 pm

Tuition is different because it is impossible for almost EVERYONE.

That a person making a six-figure income has to mortgage his house to pay tuition is insanity. There is something seriously wrong with a system when it is unaffordable for the majority.

That people go into crazy debt for it, suffer and deprive their children and themselves, etc. for it does not make it normal.

If what you are providing is beyond the financial reach of your clientele, yet you have a necessary service, it may be a great position from a business perspective, but halachicly not a good one. Does no one remember the story from the Gemara where a psak was issued to ensure that everyone could afford the pigeons for korbanos?

If tuition was a reasonable expense, affordable by most, this would be a different story. But I can choose to live in the cheapest community, make a $60K salary (very decent for most Americans), use hand-me-downs, an ancient car, rarely eat meat, and never vacation, but tuition is still a completely impossible expense.

It may not be the school's fault, but something is very wrong with such a system.

amother

Crimson

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:09 pm

amother wrote:

If tuition was a reasonable expense, affordable by most, this would be a different story. But I can choose to live in the cheapest community, make a $60K salary (very decent for most Americans), use hand-me-downs, an ancient car, rarely eat meat, and never vacation, but tuition is still a completely impossible expense.

It may not be the school's fault, but something is very wrong with such a system.

Let's reframe the issue.

You could choose to live in Israel. I know it's hard to move (I speak from experience) but it's a choice available to us.

Why not say that your obligations/wants/ needs in the USA are the problem? If it weren't for your ties to America, your tuition problems would be over. The Jewish people have figured out how to deliver low-cost Jewish education, but not everywhere.

amother

Smokey

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:28 pm

This conversation is very interesting, with good points being made on both side, but most of you seem to be forgetting about the op. Right now she's in a lot of pain, and she's feeling stuck and unwanted, and uncared for, with school starting very soon. If you want to sympathize or give her good ideas that she can use right now, that's great. If you want to talk about all the long term things she can do, like move, or get a better education, or argue about whose fault it is that she can't afford tuition, do it on a spinoff thread.

Those may be great ideas, but I'm sure right now you're just hurting her more. You have no idea what their situation is and why they can't afford tuition. In my case, my husband had started a business, and was building it up, which was why money was tight. Then he made an investment, which seemed to be a great investment, everyone he discussed it with advised him to go for it, but Hashem wanted otherwise and he lost a lot of money on it. B"H things are picking up, and hopefully in a few years things will be much better, but right now it's very difficult. She may also have a very valid reason why things are difficult now and why all your tips won't help or are just not the point.

Amarante

Mon, Aug 22 2016, 2:40 pm

amother wrote:

Financially school is expensive

Public schools are paid for by taxes and there is a correlation between amount spent and quality of education. Also a correlation between wealth of a community/size of tax base and quality if schools.

Private schools are generally nonprofit but they have to have enough money to pay for expenses to run the school. You can't run a school on good intentions and air - the dollars have to come in somehow.

At one time Catholic schools were relatively cheap because they relied on nuns as cheap labor. However more importantly, they had a large user base as every Catholic attended the same school in the neighborhood although there might have been fancy Catholic schools. I'm not an expert on parochial schools but all the Italian and Irish kids from the neighborhood who went to a Catholic school went to the same school.

So there was an economy of scale which doesn't seem to exist in the current Jewish educational system where there are schools that serve every nuance of preference.

Of course, the less expensive Catholic schools also scrimped on stuff and had large class sizes and generally not much in the way if newfangled extracurricular activities. Isn't that to some extent true in terms of there still being cheap Jewish options which may not be acceptable to some people.

Obviously you can't tax Jewish people to support schools. Israeli schools are the equivalent of US public schools in terms of being considered to be a a function of the state. Possible difference is that there appears to be more choice among public Israeli options whereas in the US there is generally only the same type of public school although large municipalities like NY will have diverse public offerings as well.

I don't know of any other community that requires middle class people to send kids to private schools. Not to mention that many sending to private schools have more children than is typical for a US middle income family.