Conversion Crisis | Imamother

rfeig613

Wed, Oct 12 2016, 11:51 pm

amother wrote:

In our family we have a saying that goes like this: "Half conversations do not enter." With all due respect, if you are uninformed about the situation, refrain from commenting. Or you can ask in a genuine way.

The rabbanut is the one who gets to decide if someone can make aliyah as a Jew or not.

The Rabbanut is an office of the Israeli government. Doesn't give them any authority over the olam Hatorah.

amother

Firebrick

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:19 am

SixOfWands wrote:

Since 1991, Rabbi Schwartz has been the av beis din of both the Beth Din of America and the Chicago Rabbinical Council, as well as the rosh beth din of the National Beth Din of the RCA. He is also editor of HaDarom, the RCA Torah journal.

That's pretty much the top rung of the ladder.

Invalidating his conversions is an absolute chilul Hashem.

Not to mention Rabbi Mordechai Willig. Rosh yeshiva of YU. Deputy av beis din of the Beth Din of America. Definitely not my favorite in light of the Baruch Lanner debacle, but certainly a highly respected rabbi, right up at the top of the ladder.

One of his conversions was invalidated as well.

The Israeli rabbinate has created fear and uncertainty for people who want nothing more than to live their lives -- as Jews -- in peace. From what was its super-secret list of rabbis whose conversions they would accept, to their final release of the list last spring -- including both Rabbi Schwartz and Rabbi Willig --then within months, invalidating conversions by those very rabbis.

My heart just breaks.

Rabbi Schwartz is not top rung. He is a leader in the modern to slightly right Orthodox world, but not considered a gadol. I personally know someone converting through the RCA, and her intentions are suspect and the rabbis
involved know. I don't know if he is involved anymore as he had a stroke last year.

WhatFor

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 1:28 am

Why does this affect Aaliyah rights in any case? My understanding of the right to Aaliyah is that it extends to anyone who would have been persecuted under the Nuremberg Laws. This would even include non-Jewish spouses of Jews. Did this change?
The people here claiming that they cannot make Aaliyah due to ger issues- have you actually had this confirmed by Israeli government officials, or was this just what you heard from someone?
Also, can someone explain- I thought the rabbanut only has power over marriages- do they have the power over who gets to make Aaliyah as well?

grace413

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 3:07 am

WhatFor wrote:

The Rabbanut has power over marriage, divorce and burial. If you are a non-Jew married to a Jew you can make aliyah. The proof of Judaism required for aliyah is not the same as the proof of Judaism required for marriage, divorce and burial - and same for children. Years ago a Jewish Israeli citizen tried to bring over her non-Jewish widowed father and was given the run around for so long that he died in the interim. There are rules and there is reality.

5mom

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 3:43 am

amother wrote:

Who's on the committee that determines gedolim?

amother

Puce

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 4:40 am

amother wrote:

I can't make Aliyah as DH is a ger. We don't think he should have to go through it again plus cause family strife over it. It won't be pretty and we treasure our family too much.

Aliyah isn't even a consideration at this point for us. Because of this we won't even look into whether it's feasible otherwise. Exploding anger

If you wanted Aliyah, ironically a reform or conservative conversion would be better for this purpose....

imasinger

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 5:56 am

amother wrote:

Where are all those people screaming about LH on this board?

Or is this rav so LW that it's OK to say anything derogatory?

sourstix

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:15 am

No one is trying to bash anyone's rav.

I was clarifying as to what someone should do to make sure that a geirus would be considered done properly. And the other poster explained why Rabbi Schwartz is not the top of the rung of rabbonim when it comes to geirus. We are saying what it is that can be helpful for people to prevent problems.
If the rabbanut is doing whatever it can to make Jews lives miserable we know that. In essence they themselves are not following halacha properly so it's obvious it's political and weather today they are in the mood of letting things fly. At this point in time the secular Israeli government is doing all it can to the frum world to make it as hard as they can make it. It's called hate. They hate us more then some of the secular world. So now u got your answer. The question is how can we go around this issue.

I don't live there so I can't tell you. Perhaps some Israelis can help out.

5mom

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 6:22 am

sourstix wrote:

No one "explained" why a major posek is not in the top rung of rabbanim.

The Rabbanut only started making trouble for gerim after Charedi rabbis began joining its ranks.

The Israeli government doesn't hate you and has no involvement whatsoever in this issue.

Your posts are an astonishing blend of ignorance and arrogance.

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 7:05 am

sourstix wrote:

Whoa, wait a minute...

You may not have realized, but your posts asking "who this guy is" came across as incredibly disrespectful.

Then when explained to you, you dismissed his prominence because he went to YU. (????)

The secular government and the Rabbanut are frequently at odds with each other, actually. Do you know what is really going on in Israel? A major source of contention among many Jews here is that the Rabbanut is TOO chareidi. Yes, there is corruption, but no, the Rabbanut's geirus issues has nothing to do with secular people hating frum ones.

Now I realize that you may not know all this. But there is a way to ask respectfully and decently if you're clueless, rather than make sweeping assumptions and insult rabbonim and question their legitimacy.

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 7:09 am

WhatFor wrote:

I know singles who have had a hard time making aliya because of their conversion.

imasinger

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 7:16 am

amother wrote:

Now I realize that you may not know all this. But there is a way to ask respectfully and decently if you're clueless, rather than make sweeping assumptions and insult rabbonim and question their legitimacy.

While I agree with much of the sentiment of your post, amother, in all fairness to sourstix, it ought to be pointed out that the "respectful and decent" way to express direct criticism is with your own screen name.

amother

Burgundy

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 7:19 am

imasinger wrote:

You're 100% right, and I accept that. I will refrain from expressing such sentiments here using amother in the future. It is very hard for me to post anything under my screen name as I am slowly finding my voice again but am not there yet.

WhatFor

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 8:44 am

grace413 wrote:

Ugh. That explains a confusing article I recently read on CNN. A man was trying to rescue a Jewish family from Aleppo and bring them to Israel, but one of the daughters had converted to Islam (so her dh wasn't Jewish) and she had three kids. In the end, the single daughter and elderly mother were allowed into Israel, and the converted daughter and family weren't and they went back to Syria.
The article said that the head of the Jewish Agency said that that wasn't true and the family decided to stay in Aleppo rather than go to Israel. I'm not sure what was true, but it sure is confusing to me how the Israeli gov would consider a woman actually "converted" to Islam. AIUI, Jews cannot convert out, and all her children would have been Jewish.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/27/.....yria/

grace413

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 9:11 am

WhatFor wrote:

I believe you misread part of the article. The children were her husband's from a previous marriage and I'm going to make the leap that his previous wife, the children's mother, was not Jewish. However, I would not put too much stock in this article all together. It appears that there were many irregularities in this entire episode.

I believe that the Law of Return does state that aliyah is open to Jews who have not converted to another religion. As stated, the Law of Return is a civil law and does not necessarily jibe with halacha. Part of this is as a precaution against people born Jewish who have taken on another faith and are interested in moving to Israel in order to attempt to draw people away from Judaism. (We should not know from such things).

5mom

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 9:16 am

WhatFor wrote:

The Law of Return has an exemption for people who publicly identify with another religion. You can immigrate, but you don't get automatic citizenship the way Jews do. This was established by what's known as the Brother Daniel case.

A Polish Jew known as Brother Daniel who converted to Catholicism and became a Carmelite friar wanted to make aliya because he was suffering from antisemitism in Poland in the 1950s. The government denied him automatic citizenship. In 1962, he appealed to the Supreme Court, which upheld the government's position. He immigrated through regular channels and lived for the rest of his life in a monastery in Haifa.

WhatFor

Thu, Oct 13 2016, 9:25 am

grace413 wrote:

Yes, thanks! Totally missed that part about the prior wife and children from another marriage.