Why not Cleveland?

amother

Taupe

Thu, Nov 03 2016, 10:10 pm

amother wrote:

Are all those people moving with jobs already secured?

We're still checking cleveland out as an option, but if we decide it makes sense, what would we do first (based on this thread): make sure we have a job secured, make sure there is a house for us (close on it?) or make sure there is room in the schools for our kids?
I know all 3 have to be done before we move. We are in New York and it's not easy to drive/fly in so much and we'd have to interview for jobs, check out houses, etc I have nowhere to leave my kids for a few days to come in. And I have job to go to every day.

amother

Ecru

Thu, Nov 03 2016, 10:35 pm

I also think that you should get a job first. You prob won't be able to get a mortgage here unless you have a job here. We had to have a cosigner because of that. We bought a house first and then found jobs and a school. School is not a big issue, I think, unless you register last minute. You can call the schools to check but as long as you apply by like spring time I would think that it would not be an issue. If I were you I would come for a shabbos to see the community, have job interviews set up for Friday, and look at the schools on Sunday. Both boys and girls have school on Sunday'in both HAC and mosdos.
Btw to everyone else, I've met many people who have moved here recently, and every single one of them has an honorable way to support their family. Either one or both parents work, or the husband learns and the wife works. Regarding the district losing money on the vouchers, how do you know that? I thought it is A. From the state, and B. I'm paying taxes to the district

Hashem_Yaazor

Sat, Nov 05 2016, 9:53 pm

The state gives a certain amount of money per child to the public school district. Some of that is allocated to the private school who accepts a voucher for a child who resides in the public school district, but to be fair, there is no reason the public school should have had money allotted for children they never serviced anyway. Most analyses actually see savings in the money to educate a child through the voucher system, with quality education affordable to everyone, but of course there are critics who think that all money should go to the public schools. To me, that makes no sense, as we are also taxpayers. The public schools don't have less money than they need. They may need to learn to be more efficient in how to use it, but my mother is an accountant in one of the largest public school districts, and there is no shortfall of money.

We are paying for schooling via our taxes and finally we are seeing our own children benefiting from it. I have to say that it is relieving to see that the state of Ohio takes into account how many students we have in our schools, how much time we spend meeting state regulations for safety and quality education beyond the classroom instruction time, and gives us funding for providing our children with education that is far superior to that in the public school they would have been assigned to instead. This is not just in the EdChoice voucher system, but also the state ADM count that gives us money for administrative costs, our auxiliary funding for textbooks/technology/equipment/remedial specialists, etc...and then we also have federal funding administered via the state.

I know I differ in politics from Marina, but as a parent of children whose alternative would be the local failing public school, I am happy the government is making it possible for my children to be exceeding state standards without me going broke for doing so. I'm not out to make the public school district broke (hey, then my mother would be out of a job Wink

) but in all my dealings with the city and state in this regard, they are thrilled to offer us educational opportunities beyond their public schools.

marina

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 2:34 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

) but in all my dealings with the city and state in this regard, they are thrilled to offer us educational opportunities beyond their public schools.

District loses about 4K for each voucher student. If you live here and your child would have to go to a low performing school, then yes, the legislature gives you this option of taking your child to a private school at the overall District's expense.

This is meant to help those kids who HAVE to live here and their schools are under-performing so here's another option for them. It is not meant for people to MOVE IN from other states just to take these funds and not have to pay for yeshiva day school tuition. That is not what the legislature intended at all.

Analogy: I am giving out chocolates with nuts to the kids in my neighborhood. If you are allergic to nuts, I feel bad for you, so I give you a dollar instead of the candy bar. Then, all the allergic kids from the ENTIRE COUNTRY come to my house to trick or treat because they heard I give dollars to those kids who are allergic to nuts.

That's what I mean. Don't move here for the vouchers.

m in Israel

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 3:08 am

marina, you keep mentioning the district "losing money" on each voucher (4K) and I am struggling to understand what that means. Do you mean it costs them 4K more than it would have to educate that child in the public school? How can that be if the voucher is only for $4,650? Even assuming administrative costs and such, I can't imagine Cleveland is only spending around $650 per student. Unless you mean that is what it actually costs the district in total to fund each voucher? If that is the case the term "loses money" seems deceptive. Yes, of course it costs the district money to pay for private school students. But private school parents also pay taxes. And as an earlier poster mentioned, if vouchers are raising property values and attracting more taxpayers to the area, that may be a long term good thing for the school district. Not to mention the general benefit to society of better educational opportunities.

The only way the "losing money" concept with make sense is if you are referring to some calculation that compares the cost of the voucher system to some financial benefit (maybe the increased tax revenue resulting from higher property values) and conclude that overall when the cost and benefits are compared there is a net loss. If you are referring to some study of the kind I'd be very interested in seeing it. (Don't worry, I'm not moving to Cleveland. I just have a particular interest in public school budgeting due to many years of working in the NYC public school system Smile

)

I also disagree with your trick or treat mashal. A better comparison would be if everyone were forming trick or treat groups where members of the group all chip in money to buy candies and then everyone is entitled to get some of the candy on Halloween. Most of the groups are only buying candy with nuts, because that is what is on sale (or if you want to be cynical say because one of the organizers owns a candy manufacturer that only produces candies with nuts). But one or two groups have agreed to buy some of the more expensive, nut free candy for those members who are allergic, even though they won't be charging the nut allergy members a higher rate. Is it wrong for a parent with a child with a nut allergy to specifically find those groups when deciding which group to participate in? Even if that group is farther away from their home? They will still be paying the regular group participation rate, and the rules of the group don't have any requirements regarding where you previously were. And of course we will add the caveat that participation in a group is mandatory -- the parent can't just decide to opt out and buy their own candy for their child. So if they join the nut only group, they will be paying membership but still have to buy their own candy if they want their kid to get the appropriate candy.

(Personally I agree that a person shouldn't move just for vouchers, just as I don't think people should make Aliyah just to save on tuition. But I don't think it is wrong from the point of view of the voucher program -- just not a good solo reason to make such a life altering decision.)

marina

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 10:03 am

The District receives abt 1800 from the state for each child within its borders. This is used for the private school kids in many ways because private school kids are already entitled to - and receive - many benefits from the District. For example, the District busses yeshiva kids to their yeshivas, evaluates them for disabilities, includes them in extracurriculars if they want, and provides some special education related services. That is where the private school parents taxes' are going to.

The District, however, has to pay out abt 5900 for each child who goes to yeshiva on a voucher. So that's the loss of 4K.

Had the child gone to the public school in the first place, the District would have spent more money educating them ( about 17K per child), so if the child was actually at the public school and then left, you can make that argument that vouchers make it easier for the District. But, if the child was NEVER in the public school and was never going to go there no matter what and IN FACT MOVED FROM A DIFFERENT STATE FOR THE $$$, then that's a loss for the District.

And many people who would be moving would be buying not foreclosed property but regular homes which means they are simply replacing previous taxpayers, so there's really no additional tax payer benefits from those people.

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 10:17 am

marina wrote:

I actually believe you are mistaken. I do believe the State intended for people to move in, with this being a benefit! Only in the past couple years have they opened up the vouchers for newcomers from out of state enrolling their children in an Ohio school for the first time; prior to that, it was for only Kindergarten (then through second grade), mainly for residents enrolling their children in school for the first time anywhere. The hope was to increase the population and therefore the economy. They purposely changed the guidelines to allow for this.

m in Israel

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 11:33 am

marina wrote:

Oh, so what you are saying is that the vouchers cost the district $4,000 of their own money after factoring in state subsidies. I suppose people talk about it as "losing the district money" because it is state laws that force the district to spend the money in this way. I still disagree with the terminology but I understand where it is coming from.

As far as property tax benefits, it is the raise in property values that usually generates the additional income, as in most places property tax is assessed based on property value. I don't know if that is the case in Cleveland (there are some places that assess based on other factors such as square footage, etc.), but it likely is.

amother

Cerise

Sun, Nov 06 2016, 11:40 am

amother wrote:

We moved recently (not to Cleveland) and I found a job first. I traveled a total of three times for job interviews and once to look at houses. It did put a lot of pressure because once I accepted the job offer I had three months to find a house, make an offer and close on it which isn't much time. We moved with a large family so finding a rental was not an option.

We moved within 3 hours of NY so the travel was a little bit easier (not a lot though).

shaimac1

Tue, Nov 08 2016, 11:20 am

amother wrote:

We are very seiously considering moving from new York to Cleveland. I have only heard great things. We are both from OOT. The only downsides I can think of are
Leaving some family
Bad winter weather
Blackouts
Am I missing something? Is there anything I should know about? hidden costs?

Cleveland isn't the only community that has Vouchers. Feel free to check out South Bend, In. We have a growing Torah community, State Tuition Vouchers, and someone that works full time to assist families with finding Jobs! Feel free to check us out at www.cdisouthbend.com or contact Mrs. Michall Goldman directly at michallgoldman@gmail.com!