The real Torah view about women?!

DrMom

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 12:30 am

I think there is a "Torah view" of women (which is more vague) and a "Rabbinic view" of women (which is subject to human error, biased by social and historical context in which the particular opinion was formed, and which varies from rabbi to trabbi).

I am not so bothered that -- like most people living at that time -- rabbanim living in the 14th century considered women to be less intellectually capable than men.

I *am* bothered that my religion still uses so many of these outdated rabbinical perspectives as valid input for deciding Jewish law when they clearly fly in the face of observable facts in our day and age.

But OTOH, we also use rabbinic rulings to mitigate Torah laws we don't particularly like. So I guess I'm not exactly a Karaite. It all comes down to hashkafa, and clearly each hashkafa navigates its way around the vast body of rulings and opinions in a way which meshes with its philosophy.

shabbatiscoming

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 1:45 am

GreenEyes26 wrote:

But they DO have to do with your life, because in order to stay a part of your community, you must follow these rules. Otherwise, you (I mean this as a general "you") will suffer. There is no Charedi community on Earth where you can do whatever you want, or not do the things you think are wrong, and get away with it. There will always be backlash.

I havent gotten any farther in this thread than this post, but Im wondering why you are equating orthodox with charedi? There are many factions of FRUM judaism, not only charedi judaism. And in many frum communities not everything I black and white.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:01 am

amother wrote:

The fact that you learned a few cherry picked sources doesn't mean that you see the larger picture. If anything, you've gotten a deliberately distorted view. It's hard to look at the corpus of halacha without getting the distinct impression that our religion considers women to be mentally, physically and spiritually inferior to men.

Ok, but what are we going to do about it? Nothing. The halacha of wiping out Amalek doesn't sit well with me either. And it doesn't matter. Hashem isn't in the business of making me feel good about myself.

All monotheism is patriarchal. We can try to make religious life as comfortable and inclusive as halacha allows, but at the end of the day, we're going to have to live with an uncomfortable reality.

Maybe not so much cherry picking halacha, as distinguishing between halachic sources and non-halacha. The women I listed as examples are not mentioned for halachic purposes as I learned them. Ex. Sara emeinu, Yael, etc.

So yes, halacha seems to portray women in a way that comflicts with how Tanach seems to portrays them.

Maybe it would be nicer if there was no conflict at all but I think the fact there is, is enough to say that it's not clear that "torah" or Hashem view women as inferior.

GreenEyes26

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:16 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

I know. You're missing the context here.

amother

Violet

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 7:43 am

amother wrote:

I am under the impression that halacha reflects the will of Hashem.

We can't blame it all on Chazal, much as the distinction would make religious misogyny more palatable. There are laws in Chumash that treat women as inferior. What do you do about those?

GreenEyes26

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 8:13 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Huh? Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? I cant tell.

I am agreeing that yes, of course, not only Chareidi Judaism is "frum" Judaism; you missed the context of why I said what I said before (too late for me to go back and explain the whole thing). I personally identify as MO.

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 9:06 am

amother wrote:

Ok, but what are we going to do about it? Nothing. The halacha of wiping out Amalek doesn't sit well with me either. And it doesn't matter. Hashem isn't in the business of making me feel good about myself.
.

I don't if I agree with the bolded. According to Rabbi Akiva, the core of living a Torah life is v'ahavta l'reiacha kamocha and the rest is commentary.
In order to effectively love others, you have to love yourself. And not just in some, me first, chayecha kodmin way. You have to have healthy self-respect and self-esteem and then you'll be able to see the best in others.
The need to feel good about ourselves is built in to the briah.

amother

Sapphire

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 9:21 am

amother wrote:

But again, if one were taking the position that Torah views women as inferior, how do you ignore those instances that contradict that?

Bottom line is there are seeming contradictions.

We're not karaites (as dh says, we eat cholent every shabbos to remind ourselves). Which means it really does all come down to chazal.

There are many things written in the gemara, unrelated to women or non-Jews, that seem to fly in the face of the established world as we know it, that contradict basic science, physics, medicine, etc.

Either one takes the view that chazal and gemara intended every word they said to be taken literally as Truth, for all time, or, we say that their views were intended allegorically, or were a reflection of the world they lived in. Personally I am more comfortable with the latter two positions.

Also, since Torah is meant to adapt to the times, why do the different views that we are learning now, feel like apologetics?

amother

Violet

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:13 am

PinkFridge wrote:

The need to feel good is human. So are other appetites that we don't get to indulge at all times.

When Hashem told Avraham Avinu to sacrifice Yitzchak, one assumes that Avraham was not overjoyed at the idea. Yet he got up early to do what he was commanded.

amother

Violet

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

The Torah doesn't hate women. There are positive things in our tradition. But the Torah explicitly values a female life at 60 percent of a male one. Girls can be married off against their will, husbands can annul their wives' vows, women are not included in the invitation to Yerushalyim for the regalim. (And don't get me started about Niddah!)

That's not Chazal, it's Chumash. For whatever reason, Hashem wanted us to see those rules, even if Chazal have permission to finesse them a bit.

There's no such thing as "the Torah view" of most things. There's a range. Only the vast majority of tradition (as opposed to the few cute things taught in many charedi girls' schools) is weighted to the side of female inferiority.

yksraya

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:38 am

amother wrote:

In the world I live in, the girls usually rather have a say when it comes to shiduchim then the bachurim. Ppl tell the bachur "your having a beshow today". But the girls (in most families) are kept up to date earlier and asked if they agree to meet so and so. So I don't really see that much girls should be married off against their will (yes that happens in certain families, but not the average).

Also, the torah deffinetely doens't have gender equality, yet, I don't agree that woman are inferior. We are just differant then men, and have other responsabilities. Also, where men need to do davening/avodah, we woman don't as we are holy enough without having to. We woman are like the kohen gadul at the avodah, that is how we are in our kitchens!!!!!

PinkFridge

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:46 am

amother wrote:

You're conflating two things. There's pleasure, and there's happiness. No, not every moment in life is going to be fun or easy. Think of someone going through medical school, or some rigorous program, etc. Then there's the deep satisfaction that comes from knowing one is doing the right thing, the ratzon Hashem, and connecting with the ultimate Source.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:49 am

amother wrote:

It is 100% against Halacha to force anyone to marry. Where does the Torah say that a woman can be forced?

Laiya

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 10:50 am

amother wrote:

What you are calling inferior, made sense if the intent was to ensure that women's physical needs would be provided for in an agrarian society.

tigerwife

Wed, Dec 07 2016, 11:59 am

Quote:

What kind of things are you talking about? Things that are against halacha?

It's just a pet peeve of mine when people think that the more right wing you are, the more sheep- like you are and the more fearful of breaking social rules. Either you don't know that many people that well, or you simply have pre-conceived notions that bedeck each person in bias.

As for the topic, I'm a working mom who does feel that there is an inherent difference in the sexes yet does not feel inferior at all (and actually strongly believes the opposite).