Mamzerim? | Imamother

MommyM

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 6:57 pm

yksraya wrote:

so find a source. How can you be sure based on what you feel or think is the right way?

I can be sure because in the back of my head, I thought I remembered learning it at one point. Just took me a few minutes to confirm my memory is correct.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:10 pm

MommyM wrote:

The source is a clear possuk in Chumash: "לא יבא ממזר בקהל ה' גם דור עשירי לא יבא לו בקהל ה'" (דברים כ"ג ג'). A person who knows he is a ממזר is not allowed to marry a non- Mamzer

Sorry, saw thw source only now.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:13 pm

To that I have an answer. If no one tells the mamzer that he is a mamzer. And the person marrying the mamzer has no clue, thus they can marry as it's deemed forgotten.
That is why ppl need to shut their mouth and not tell anyone, including the mamzer himself that the kid is a mamzer, thus enabling the kid to get married and the mamzerus status forgotten.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:18 pm

yksraya wrote:

Your post is written with no less feelings than the ones you accused of using before.
It's not true what you're saying, if he's definitely a mamzer then it can't be hidden.
But I'm stepping out here.

cnc

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:19 pm

yksraya wrote:

That's not true. If it's known they can't marry, but if they don't know it's considered forgotten.
If you have sources that prove otherwise, list them. Ty

Where in the world did you get this from? Forgotten means after a certain amount of generations (IIRC 10) the status doesn't apply- not that someone literally forgot!

I would appreciated if you would bring up a source for what your wrote.

cnc

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:20 pm

yksraya wrote:

You are just making this up based on what you think makes sense (exactly what you accused someone else of.)
Please provide a source.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:24 pm

cnc wrote:

Where have YOU heard abt the 10 generations thing. Maybe a source abt that?

I don't have a clear source. But have heard so from someone based on a story of a safuk mamzer.

amother

Hotpink

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:25 pm

yksraya wrote:

Where have YOU heard abt the 10 generations thing. Maybe a source abt that?

I don't have a clear source. But have heard so from someone based on a story of a safuk mamzer.

You can't base halachos on hearsay.

cnc

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:30 pm

yksraya wrote:

Where have YOU heard abt the 10 generations thing. Maybe a source abt that?

I don't have a clear source. But have heard so from someone based on a story of a safuk mamzer.

Parshas Devarim- when I learned Hilchos Mamzeirus in Chumash.

cnc

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:35 pm

yksraya wrote:

That is why I said "I've heard". And btw it was explained to someone by a very prominent chassidish dayen.

I'm really sorry to tell you but this is totally inaccurate. After the fact , rabbanim try to find loopholes so that the person is not considered a mamzer. But if they actually are a mamzer then not telling them doesn't take away the problem!
These are two different scenarios. (Finding a loophole that they're not a mamzer, and declaring that they are but hiding it.)

I have a feeling that the incident you're referring to is the first scenario as you clearly wrote a safuk.

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:42 pm

cnc wrote:

Yeah, in that case it was safuk. But he said about the keeping quiet to help the mamzer get married. So my question is, if the kid never finds out he is a mamzer or safuk mamzer, does he need to be told? Or is the halacha lenient that if he never finds out he can get married?

State source, not just opinions. Ty

cnc

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:47 pm

yksraya wrote:

I don't know the halachic answer- you would need to ask a Rav. But if he IS marrying even if he does not know that he is a mamzer, he is passing the mamzeirus down to the next generation.

Now the person that knows and would allow that person to marry needs to realize what an achrayis he has on his head and that he's causing generations and generation of mamzeirim (even if the Halacha is lenient- whatever that means) and I hope he doesn't take that responsibility upon himself Chas vchalila and that he consults Daas Torah.

amother

Seagreen

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:55 pm

etky wrote:

In the late 60's and early 70's - the famous case of the Langer twins. The Petach Tikva rabbinical court declared the twins mamzerim (their mother had been married to a convert in Poland and had not received a get from him before she married the twins' father in Israel) and thus unable to wed their Jewish fiancees.
The case, amidst tremendous publicity, progressed to the high rabbinical court in Jerusalem, caused a coaltion crisis that almost brought down the government and eventually, after prolonged deliberations involving such famous personalities such as rabbis Goren, Ovadia Yosef and Eliashiv (at the time a member of the high rabbinical court) the Petach Tikva's decision was overturned and the twin's mamzerut status was rescinded.

Imagine my shock reading this thread, as my last name is Langer! We must not be related to these twins, as I don't think I've heard this story!

amother

Lemon

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 7:57 pm

amother wrote:

Imagine my shock reading this thread, as my last name is Langer! We must not be related to these twins, as I don't think I've heard this story!

I went to high school with a Langer Tongue Out

yksraya

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 8:03 pm

cnc wrote:

He would have gotten married anyway, and his kids would've been mamzerim anyway (gerim or other mamzarim, if he/ppl are aware of his status)

That is why we do thorough background checks, to make sure not to marry a mamzur.

It's just interesting to know what halacha is in such case. And not just dry halacha but the heterim regarding the matter.

hillary

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 8:46 pm

Shulchan aruch 265:4 states that at a bris of a mamzer, we announce his status as a mamzer.

Although we feel bad for the child's hardship, this would not be considered lashon hora. We are trying to ensure the purity of yichus of future generations. If someone is to blame, it is those who commit adultery. They caused the child's pain, not the one who announced it.

I cannot fathom the pain a person has going through life like this and this should give pause to anyone considering such a thing. Besides the kares involved, they are causing unimaginable pain to someone who is still unborn

tichellady

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 8:51 pm

hillary wrote:

Adultery is not the only thing that causes mamzeret. A woman who is raped by her brother is not at fault that her child will be a mamzer ( I'm not saying that her child will definitely be a mamzer, depends on the details as it does with adultery of whether she was married or not etc ).

causemommysaid

Thu, Dec 15 2016, 9:21 pm

hillary wrote:

no we really don't.

Have you ever heard a case where they announced something like that at a bris?

Come on, there is written halacha and what we actually practice.

I don't know about "forgetting" or whatever yksrayas talking about but we certainly don't look too deeply into this stuff and when people know something they shouldnt they are generally advised to keep their mouth shut.

Besides, it is very very hard to prove mamzairus. You need actual witnesses to see the affair or you need witnesses from the original wedding to testify that it was fully kosher. How often does that happen?