Are my kids born overseas automatically Israeli Citizens??

Mal Kay

Fri, Jan 06 2017, 3:57 pm

Teomima wrote:

I think claiming a country is chasing after its citizens is a little extreme. Israel offers a gift to everyone eligible: citizenship! A Jewish homeland that thousands have died for and millions of lives would have been spared had it existed earlier. If you don't want this gift, that's fine, you can renounce your citizenship.

As for those arguing that us mother's raising Israeli children are willing to risk them getting hurt in the army, perhaps you ought to look at it this way: research international crime rates and compare Israel to your country. I'm willing to bet the crime rates are lower here. Fewer homicides, rapes, muggings, etc per capita. So really, who is taking the bigger risk with their children, those of us raising our kids in a country where our daughters are perfectly safe out on the street alone at night, or those where you are afraid walking around after dark?

And OP, you were the one who brought politics into this conversation, repeating how much Israel and Israeli citizenship scared you.

You're making it sound as if it's so simple to renounce the citizenship. Wish it would be ... and, there isn't such a big crime rate in NY where the Jews live, as in Israel unfortunately! The passed few years, so many Jews died from terrorist attacks.

Mal Kay

Fri, Jan 06 2017, 4:04 pm

Also: it is so simple to understand that for some people being in the army is better for them ...while for others being in yeshiva is better. OP must want her son to be a yeshiva bochur... thus being an Israeli citizen posts a problem ..
we're running off topic...

DrMom

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 11:17 am

Mal Kay wrote:

Lots of things may be "better than" serving in the army, but most Israeli view it as an obligation to defend our country from the many forces who wish to see us dead. One can serve in a hesder yeshiva and be a "yeshiva bochur" while still contributing to the safety and defense of the country.

DrMom

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 11:26 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

In your mind, should children be born with no citizenship whatsoever? How long could someone go as a stateless person?

They should automatically be a citizen of the country they were born in.
They should optionally be able to become a citizen of the country their parents were born in, if they wish to.
Simple.
Forcing someone to be a citizen in a country they weren't born in, is chasing after citizens.

It's really not so simple. For example, wealthy countries which grant citizenship on the principle of jus soli (such as the US) have massive problems with illegal immigration.

And why is "forcing" someone to be a citizen through jus sanguini so horrible, but "forcing" someone to be a citizen via jus soli is wonderful? You can't control where you are born any more than you can control who your parents are.

Each country sets its own citizenship policies. I don't see why you think your simplistic policy should be followed by every country in the world. The only justification you have provided is that it works for *you*.

5mom

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 11:40 am

Mal Kay wrote:

Israel's murder rate, which includes terrorism, is about 2.7 per 100,000 and has been stable over the last thirty years. New York City, after a massive decline in murder rates, is still far more dangerous than Jerusalem. Perception and reality are not the same.

Teomima

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 12:15 pm

Mal Kay wrote:

You're making it sound as if it's so simple to renounce the citizenship.

http://mfa.gov.il/MFA/Consular......aspx

Mal Kay wrote:

and, there isn't such a big crime rate in NY where the Jews live, as in Israel unfortunately! The passed few years, so many Jews died from terrorist attacks.

Show me one statistic that backs that up.

But yes, as you say, we are getting off topic. I think my point is that, if you don't want to live in Israel, or raise Israeli children, that's your prerogative. But no need to cross the line and claim that those of us that do are putting ourselves and our children in any more harms way than you are (and never mind the kedusha of building a bayit neeman b'yisrael).

Last edited by Teomima on Sat, Jan 07 2017, 3:41 pm; edited 1 time in total

Marion

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 12:30 pm

By the way, the United States uses BOTH jus sanguini and jus soli in determining citizenship, such that there are a heck of a lot of U.S. citizens around the world who have never set foot on U.S. soil, but they were born to at least one U.S. citizen parent. This is a much HARSHER sentence than the Israeli version, since the U.S. requires tax reporting (a potentially expensive hassle) of all citizens, regardless of their residency.

shabri

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 1:55 pm

Right. I was going to say my 4 children who were born in Israel to US citizen parents were automatically American citizens by birth, but they were not Israeli citizens until we made Aliya several years later. Being born in Israel did not grant them automatic citizenship but being born to US citizen parents even abroad made them automatically US citizens.

shabbatiscoming

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 3:31 pm

Mal Kay wrote:

Mal Kay, I dont know where you are getting your information from but it is simply not true. The crime rate in Israel is just much lower than in the USA.

amother

Blue

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 5:18 pm

OP, I haven't read the entire thread but I have dealt with issue in my line of work and I can tell you that the best way to avoid any problems is to register all your children as Israeli's and then renounce their citizenship, as well as your own.

If they never travel to Israel you might be 'safe'. But what is the likelihood of that happening? Your bochurim may end up in yeshiva there, your daughters may wish to visit... I find that families often go to the ends of the earth trying to pass of as non-family when they visit Israel in order for their children to pass recognition, but in the end of the day, more often then not, it comes up. Dealing with it correctly prevents future agmas nefesh and anxiety.

Chana Miriam S

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 6:29 pm

amother wrote:

Wow, you are good at turning words into what you want...of course no one will be okay if their kids get injured... so there are two types of people:
1) many send their kids away..army..because they believe that's the right thing to do and they're nervous and praying to Hashem their kids should not get injured. While-
2) many believe staying home is the right thing... and they try serving hashem in their own way etc.

understanding so far? Kinda complicated...
That's basically it Smile

Sequoia was correct. If you miswrote, own it.

Mal Kay

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 6:48 pm

Teomima and 5mom, crime rate by the nonjews is not what we are referring to. They kill each others daily. The Jews are safer in NY than in Israel. (examples-Arab shooting in a shul , 3 bochurim kid napped and killed h"y)

Liba

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 6:52 pm

Mal Kay wrote:

Crime by non Jews is what you are talking about.

None of the crimes you listed were done by Jews.

And is it generally the same in the US.

You can't discount all of the crime in the US as being done by non Jews while listing crimes, all done by non Jews, here in E"Y.

notshanarishona

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 8:43 pm

DrMom wrote:

It is very different for someone who lives in Israel and an Israeli who is settled in the USA for long term to have this view. I don't think anyone can have a tayna on someone for not serving when they don't even live or get benefits from the state.

Mal Kay

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 10:44 pm

Liba wrote:

No... I'm obviously talking about crime done TO the Jews.... and not crimes going on at Non Jewish people... much more JEWS KILLED BY NON JEWS in Israel, than in NY.

So we're not discounting anything more in some places than in others.

Mal Kay

Sat, Jan 07 2017, 10:50 pm

shabbatiscoming wrote:

Mal Kay, I dont know where you are getting your information from but it is simply not true. The crime rate in Israel is just much lower than in the USA.

I'm referring to Jews being killed by non Jews...
The general crime rate is also based on non Jewish people crimes...(when they are killing each others we don't always care). We care when Jews get involved / when Jews are killed ch"v

DrMom

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 12:30 am

Mal Kay wrote:

Where are your statistics from?

Teomima

Sun, Jan 08 2017, 12:32 am

Mal Kay, I was the one who brought up the crime rate question in the first place, and no, I wasn't differentiating between who's killed more, Jews or non-Jews. Because I wasn't referring to homicides alone, not to mention you really have no way of knowing just how many NY homicide victims are Jewish, and obviously there will be a greater percentage of Jewish victims in a country that is primarily Jewish. But it's not like they're all hate crimes and terrorism.

What I was doing by bringing up crime rates was responding to the idea that us Israeli mothers are willing to risk our children getting injured in the IDF (in which, by the way, both Jews and -Jews serve) by saying that we are providing a safer environment overall for our children. They face less risk of being mugged in the street, of being the victim of zexual crimes, encountering hold-ups, being burgled, etc.

But again, we are so, so far off topic right now. My entire original point was for everyone to please be more respectful of what Israeli citizenship means to those of us for whom it was the greatest gift we could have given our children.