Kids spending Shabbos with non-frum dad?

amother

Burgundy

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 4:17 am

In the process of divorce mediation with DH who was ffb and is now vehemently rejecting orthodoxy. He accepts that the kids will continue to be raised frum but only because he sees there is not much choice.

I'm curious what arrangements others in this situation have tried about Shabbos. So far he agreed to keep kosher when the kids are with him but apparently not because of the importance to them but because he feels it won't cramp his style too much because he likes kosher food enough anyway. But Shabbos he is arguing about because he says he will feel too restricted having to keep Shabbos when they're with him. I said tough luck, if you give birth to Shabbos observant kids and decide to change yourself then you may have to give up some of your own comfort in order to maintain a relationship with them. We got stuck at this point and will have to pick up the issue again next time, and meanwhile I want to hear some new perspectives and experiences that may help me figure out how to deal with this.

The kids are very young, much to young to take charge of their own Shabbos observance. I have already seen that it is very disturbing to them when they see DH outwardly violating Torah. They're old enough to be bothered by it and not old enough to know how to process it. I've talked to them to try to help them but it doesn't stop them from being upset in the moment. So while part of me might say it will be OK if they spend some lame Shabboses, I'll try to make up for it when they're with me and when they're older they will have to choose their own path and may be able to do that better if they don't feel too restrained when they're younger, I also worry that it's not right to put them in this position.

If DH were at all able to reason about this then I would be OK with taking a flexible approach and playing it by ear but because he is being so difficult, this really needs to be spelled out in the divorce agreement. I wish it would be easier to reevaluate as we see how things go but that's impossible, we literally need to plan out as much of our kids' childhood as possible right now without knowing what they will be like in the future.

DH works a very busy schedule so while we haven't discussed physical custody yet I am sure he is going to want a lot of weekends to make up for his unavailable weeks. I don't want to limit his relationship with the kids, I think that would be damaging in every way as they are very close now, but I also don't want them spending Shabbos with someone who is so hostile about it. I feel like even if I push him to make Shabbos for them, if he's going to do it with a bad attitude then that will be maybe even more damaging.

I'm going to bring this question to a Rav but I want to go in knowing what other people have experienced in similar situations.

imasinger

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 4:45 am

I don't know what the right thing is for you in your situation, but I'll share my story, FWIW.

I separated when my kids were 7 and 2, divorced a year later. During that time, I was becoming BT. Ex was extremely uncomfortable with it. It would have been pointless for me to request him to provide kosher food or a Shabbos environment.

The kids already understood that Mommy and Daddy had very different ways of doing things. Observance was only one part of the picture. Frankly, I was more concerned with how he treated them than anything else. But I was advised that the most important thing was for kids to have a relationship with both parents, and to let that happen.

I did have it written in our agreement that I could move out of the area, as I knew my ties were not strong there.

A few years later, I did move. The kids spoke with their dad every day (except Shabbos) on the phone, but only saw him a couple of times a year, when he would take them for a week or 2. He did not change his (lack of) religious lifestyle during those times.

When DD turned 12, she told him that she would now only eat kosher food when she was with him (of course, that had been the case for years the rest of the time), and would be keeping Shabbos at his home, too. It was a major battle, but she stuck to her guns. I credit her deep emunah in part to that experience.

Fast forward another 15 years. Both kids have come to terms with who their father is, and who they are, b"H.

When they were old enough, they pushed him on their own, and it was more effective than my trying to do so. He probably still thinks they were brainwashed, but he has come to respect them and be proud of them.

OP, what do you think he would say if, when the subject of visitation comes up, you said, "the kids are being raised as frum Jews, who keep Shabbos, how do you propose we handle that?"

amother

Salmon

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 7:58 am

Op you are in a difficult and painful situation.
Difficult because there are no official rights and wrongs And painful because when it's not going out frum way that's what it feels like.

I had the same thing where my otd x moved out.
The little one hasn't got much weight in the decisions of her father. She was just 3 when he moved out.
We decided we ate doing all in tbe childrens best interest. He keeps a kosher kitchen. One of my older children will bring her own cholov yisroel milk which he doesn't have though.
I'm In the agreement we agreed that if the children stay with him for shabbos he will keep it how he is supposed to. It is not a regular thing staying over shabbos but motze shabbos til Sun eve is weekly. But if the older ones want it different on shabbos they can. That's painful for me but not in my control. As teenagers decide for themselves what level they want to keep.

Children are clever. Dd then 4 told me that she knows her father drives on shabbos and does muktza and we don't. They are not stupid.

When both parents have their children's emotional and physical well-being in mind and not their own as priority it works best.

Good luck

amother

Copper

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 9:43 am

I am guessing part of your reason for divorce is him rejecting orthodoxy? You need to let him be himself. If he fakes it the kids will see that and loose respect for him OR he will lie to you about faking it and you won't know what really goes on there to talk to your kids about.

When the kids are old enough they can make their own choice if they want to be orthodox or not. You can't force your religious beliefs on him as much as he can't force his on yours. He is not fighting to put the kids in public school and is agreeing to eat kosher with them (heck that's a step more than some would go of agreeing to FEED them kosher but not keep kosher themselves.

Don't take their father away and don't give them a "fake Father" who is pretending to be something he is not. Let them go. They are young now and can make the choice of shabbos/kosher themselves when the time comes.

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 10:17 am

amother wrote:

Huh? What are you talking about? Opdidbt tajd their father away he chose to make major changes and leave their family. She doesn't have to send her kids off to be influenced by their fathers new lifestyle.

amother

Salmon

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

Being in such a situation I don't send my children to be influenced by him but influences are inevitable. The spectrum of yiddishkeit has expanded from being frum orthodox to otd and when the children are old enough they will find what they feel comfortable with rather than seeing the frum way of life only.
This is where I say that Hashem needs to look after our children because it's circumstances beyond our control.
Some say I should cut off contact with their father because of the influence. But I didn't as they need a father and he's not abusive and want to be part of his children's life

amother

Smokey

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 10:58 am

amother wrote:

There's a middle ground between cutting off contact and sending for shabbos.

SingALong

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 11:19 am

I recall a relative of my friend in a similar situation. my friend told me that her relative's in-laws (the otd father's family) were extremely supportive of her and were there for her. they hosted their non-frum ds and his kids when it was his turn for shabbosim. That way he didn't need to keep shabbos for them, (kiddush, shul, etc) but got to spend quality time with them, and the kids were in a shabbosdik environment.

op what is your relationship with your in-laws, siblings in law with this? would you want them to be involved as an external support system for weekend visitation? would your dh want that too?

thunderstorm

Fri, Jan 13 2017, 3:55 pm

OP, I was a child of such a situation. I hated going to my father for Shabbos because everything was so different. He carried his keys in his pocket even though there wasn't an Eruv and he did some chilul Shabbos for his own convenience. But he never made us be mechallel Shabbos. He made regular seudos, sang zemiros and took us to shul. It was not exactly the most religious of shuls. And I felt very uncomfortable. I don't think it was his lack of frumkeit that I didn't like, it was rather his lack in interesting in having us. We felt like we were a burden and was just doing his duty of visitation. But looking back I have to say I'm happy that we had that opportunity to go every other Shabbos. We always reminisce about those days and it opened me up to different factions of Judaism. OP, I remained frum the way I was raised it did not affect me negatively. But I had some rebellious siblings. I don't think my fathers lack of frumkeit was the cause. They were hurting because they were victims of a divorce, with an OTD father, a not coping mother and surrounded by an environment that thought of divorce as a stigma. This was over 20 yrs ago when OTD family members and divorce wasn't as rampant as it is today. I had a teacher that thought it was against Halacha to go to my father. I'm happy I didn't fall for that. If you are not sure what to do, I would advise you to ask a shaila from a rav who is familiar with this kind of issue. Good Luck!

amother

Rose

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 4:24 pm

amother wrote:

But how will I know I can trust him?
He will not watch movies on friday night/going out by car etc.with the children? You basicly put the children in the lions den. The same with kosher, can you realy trust him only to give kosher food??
Give him all the days but Shabbos?

imasinger

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 6:44 pm

amother wrote:

True

But depending on the fathers wishes we have to accommodate. Legally he would get them 50% I think....
Often they don't want it esp in otd cases but some do insist.

I was advised to cut off if I wanted to get her into a certain school......

I would not put my DD in such a school, if I were in your situation.

Sooner or later, she may face social stigma about this, even if you did cut off.

And there are psychological consequences for a child losing all contact with a parent.

Please think hard about this.

amother

Salmon

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 7:44 pm

amother wrote:

You must have some sort of an agreement 're the children. What sort of things are expected to adhere for their spiritual and physical well being. To all of a sudden change all religious rules will confuse them.
He will have to keep To the agreement 're shabbos kashrus etc. If the child/children can talk you'll find out sooner or later if the line has been crossed. For the rest we have to trust Hashem.
If he watches a movie on shabbos when they are asleep who cares?
Dd5 knows that her father does muktza lights drives etc. As long as she doesn't.

Hashem has put us in this situation and He has to take responsibility. We can only do what is in our control. And showing their non from father no respect or trust I don't think is a good idea.

amother

Burgundy

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 8:48 pm

OK this is getting a little confusing because it seems there are a few people posting with similar situations, I'll try to keep track of amother colors!

I'm OP, burgundy. Trying to process the different things said here. Also wondering if there is some chinuch expert I can talk to who is familiar with these situations. Anyone know? I have a rav I plan to discuss things with in general but I don't think he has enough experience specifically with this type of setup.

My kids know that Dad doesn't keep Torah and mitzvos but I still think it is different and disturbing when it's actually in their face. Especially because they're so young and don't have the mental tools to process complexity. Maybe when they're teenagers they can deal with it even if it's uncomfortable but I think as little kids it's just too confusing. Some things more than others - I think seeing him without a yarmulka is less disturbing then if they'd see him using his phone or computer on Shabbos (I've convinced him to limit it to the bathroom, he feels this is "being a prisoner in his own home.") but even that, they'll ask him to put something on his head when they see it bare. Even though they "know" he doesn't keep mitzvos. It's just confusing to a little kid and they crave more simple stability.

Copper why do you think he's not fighting to put the kids in public school? That's coming up on the agenda Sad

I don't know what to do about that either... I'd be open to a more modern school except that the options in my neighborhood are a little weak. If we move to a different place then I'd consider it. But he wants them out of yeshiva yesterday.

I'm not sure how we're going to work out dividing the time. DH has a very demanding career and if it turns out that weekends are the only time he's able to get together with the kids then it would just be sad for their relationship if it can't include any Saturdays.

In laws are not going to be helpful. They are likely to be supportive of us but DH is unlikely to agree to sharing time with them.

BizzyDizzyMommy, do you think you felt like a burden to him because he had to do Shabbos for you, or was that unrelated? Do you think he would have been more interested/less burdened and therefore more comfortable for you if he would have not kept shabbos and done what he wanted? What do you think could have helped your situation be better, both on Shabbos and in general?

thunderstorm

Sat, Jan 14 2017, 9:10 pm

amother wrote:

OK this is getting a little confusing because it seems there are a few people posting with similar situations, I'll try to keep track of amother

BizzyDizzyMommy, do you think you felt like a burden to him because he had to do Shabbos for you, or was that unrelated? Do you think he would have been more interested/less burdened and therefore more comfortable for you if he would have not kept shabbos and done what he wanted? What do you think could have helped your situation be better, both on Shabbos and in general?

We felt we were not really wanted and that he was just doing his duty of having us. The minute Shabbos was over he was having us pack up and head out the door. My father is not an atheist. He has a spiritual side of him, but not necessarily frum. He always kept a kosher kitchen even though he would eat out in treife places. He would never have blatantly turned on a computer or light in front of us. He only went to shul the Shabbosim that we visited. He had non Jewish friends who sometimes joined us for the seuda but were very respectful of our traditions etc. When we went for a walk on Shabbos we were all in elegant Shabbos clothes while my father wore his jeans, tshirt and no yarmulke. I was 11 and my youngest sibling was two when this all started. If we felt my father loved us I don't think his lack of frumkeit would have affected us as much as the lack of affection he had towards us.