If you believe Hashem will give you something it'll happen?

greenfire

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 3:44 pm

wow why hadn't I thought of this before ...

thinking thinking thinking hard about money, cabin in the woods, & a zexy strong man [while I'm at it I'd like to be skinny]

because if I am happy b'gashmius well then it's all for ruchnius of course ~

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 3:54 pm

Green fire, your post was very funny and made me giggle, but all joking aside, it sounds like you have some true requests: parnassah, a loving husband that you find attractive...
have you ever really invested your effort into believing you deserve and davening for those things? Because you do, of course, deserve them, and Hashem can do anything...

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 4:27 pm

maidale wrote:

Sometimes we really want something, believe in it and pray for it, and Hashem decides to answer 'no'.
He knows what's best for me and if He decides to say no at this time, I believe He knows what He's doing.

And because you believe THIS to be true, it is for you. And because others invest themselves in other beliefs, consciously or subconsciously, those beliefs come true for them.

For example, it is a well known hashkafa that a person can achieve an answered prayer that is NOT good for him, if he davens long enough, with intense pleading. That is why we must consider our prayers carefully, and daven for guidance in praying for good things.

No one can really prove or negate the koach hamachshava/Tefillah in her life, because it's already in force, bringing to you what you put your faith in. (Unless counteracted by another law or gezairah or force in hashgacha protis. But that is usually for exceptional circumstances.)

We often believe if we just have x y or z we will be happy. We must be happy first, full of joy and confidence in Hashem's ultimate power, to receive x y or z. Everything is actually astonishingly simple...usually what appears to be true is exactly the opposite...

amother

Babyblue

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 5:30 pm

amother wrote:

Now that you mention believing in deserving - I actually remember learning that the reason four fifths of the Jews died in Egypt was because they didn't think they deserved to be redeemed and therefore didn't believe (have emunah) that it could happen...

So sounds like feeling that we deserve something (perhaps that includes believing that Hashem loves each and every one of us and wants what's best for us) helps us have emunah that Hashem will give it to us which in turn helps it become the reality...

amother

Purple

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 6:06 pm

The first link didn't open and the second one the writing was small and I couldn't enlarge it (have to wait til my computer geek sin can help).

Are the two links the same?

But anyway -

There is also the issue of how much control do we have over our thoughts?

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 6:24 pm

[quote="amother"

There is also the issue of how much control do we have over our thoughts?[/quote]

It takes years of practice with meditation and intense focus to truly control ones thoughts, but it can be done. Great Rebbes and mekubalim have practiced this through the generations, hence the power of their brachos and tefillos.

So how can we normal people make use of the koach hamachshava?

THROUGH TEFILLAH. This is the grown up understanding of Kavanah, of avoda shebalev. All day long we think many conflicting thoughts, giving unfocused direction to our own spiritual forces. Prayer is the time of day to tune out the world around you and give complete focus to your thoughts. Focus solely on your bakashos, give them energy and intent. Thank Hashem for the positive outcome of your prayer BEFORE YOU RECEIVE IT. That is emunah, the fundamental foundation of prayer.

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 6:33 pm

amother wrote:

Yes. In fact, the galus/geulah from Mitzrayim is where we learn many of our yesodos hatefillah and yesodos haemunah.

Think about this: the nashim tzidkaniyis in Mitzrayim made tambourines to use for song and dance of thanksgiving to Hashem WHILE their babies were snatched from their arms to be put in the pyramids of Paroah. It was in their zechus, in the zechus of their faith and belief, that klal Yisrael was redeemed. And it isn't just a nice thing that they had tambourines to use after they were redeemed. Rather, their TAMBOURINES, THEIR FAITH IN THE REDEMPTION, IS WHAT BROUGHT ABOUT THE REDEMPTION. Without those tambourines, without those thoughts and actions of faith, there would have been no redemption.

amother

Taupe

Thu, Jan 26 2017, 7:36 pm

In the end, harbei drachim lamakom. If these very spiritual concepts inspire and empower you, good. If not, you can be a good Torah observant Jew without ever considering their force in your life. Just please learn the entire first section of Nefesh Hachaim (Rav Chaim Volozhiner) before you write off these concepts as "New Age/Disney" thinking.

PinkFridge

Fri, Jan 27 2017, 1:06 pm

Taupe, because of the some of the sources I won't totally discount as New Agey, etc. But when this kind of thing is said without the grounding and reputability some of these sources have, yeah, I will question.
As it is, I'm on the fence. Yes, we have to have emunah. Just like the women had their tambourines, no one would say the Chofetz Chaim was New Agey for having a Moshiach suitcase packed. (And if the Chofetz Chaim is urban legend, surely there were others who did.) And I've also heard that the 4/5 didn't believe it could happen, so it didn't for them.
But there's a difference between believing that Hashem CAN do anything, and that Hashem WILL do anything (besides bringing Moshiach b'ito if not sooner).

amother

Taupe

Fri, Jan 27 2017, 1:21 pm

PinkFridge wrote:

But there's a difference between believing that Hashem CAN do anything, and that Hashem WILL do anything (besides bringing Moshiach b'ito if not sooner).

Certainly true. If someone, for example, davens that they should sprout wings and fly, the Tefillah will likely not be answered, and chazal call such a Tefillah a "Tefillas Shav." A person should be very careful to daven respectfully, with appropriate requests. But always with the understanding than Hashem loves her, and WILL do what's best for her, and that Hashem can do ANYTHING, beyond the laws of nature. A person should only visualize the desired OUTCOME in Tefillah, and not get bogged down in logic, or give eitzos to Hashem. That leaves the space for Hashem to resolve your problems, beyond what the human mind can dream up through logic.

How can a person ensure his tefillos and bakashos are respectful? By saying "Hashem please grant me such and such, so that I CAN USE IT TO FULFILL YOUR WILL.". How can someone lack the feeling of being deserving, that Hashem WILL send them their request in the best possible way, while expressing such a thought? And if one can't attach those words to her request, she will realize that's intuition saying " this bakasha isn't really respectful... "

heidi

Sat, Jan 28 2017, 12:20 pm

The most amazing movie just came out in Israel-- mainstream film produced and directed by a frum baalat tshuva. Anyway, it's about an older single who decides to plan a wedding, complete with booking a hall, buying a dress and sending out invitations, believing that with this hishtadut, Hashem will send her bashert.
Amazing amazing movie!!
You have to suspend belief but it brings up such great questions . . .

amother

Powderblue

Sat, Jan 28 2017, 1:26 pm

heidi wrote:

Whats it called where can I see it

amother

Taupe

Sat, Jan 28 2017, 8:32 pm

amother wrote:

If I fervently believe in unicorns, does that mean they are real?

Please read post above, referring to "Tefillas Shav," and the importance of respectful Tefillah. How would belief in unicorns, or praying for their existance, help you to fulfill Hashem's will? Belief in "Ain ode Milvado" and the infinite creative power placed in man as a tzelem elokim does not make one silly or disrespectful of the world's boundaries.

(Also, specifically about unicorns, there are medrashim about animals from ancient doros that resemble our modern day interpretation. Most mythological or fantasy creatures and demons are rooted in creatures that are spiritual in nature.)

amother

Taupe

Sat, Jan 28 2017, 8:52 pm

Think about it like this: if you grew up never hearing about Moshiach, and then learned about him for the first time as an adult, you would probably feel a little dubious at first, it would probably take you a little time to make such a huge paradigm shift. And yet, if you were raised with the concept of Moshiach, you have no trouble accepting his presence in your spiritual paradigm, because it feels comfortable and natural.

With these extremely spiritual concepts, if you were raised with a very practical application of Torah, with very little education in your personal power to effect your outer world by changing your inner world, then they will make you uncomfortable. Not because they aren't true, but because we are afraid of paradigm shifts.

To mock concepts that are mentioned all over Tanach, the gemarah, and expounded on by rishonim and achronim does not make one sound clever...uneducated perhaps? There is nothing wrong with saying "these concepts make me uncomfortable, because they are not the way I was educated in Torah until now.". But mocking them is like hearing about Moshiach (belief in something spiritual, something yet unseen) and mocking the concept.