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Forum -> Household Management -> Finances

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Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 9:57 am

simcha2 wrote:

All the law and med students I know (including when dh was at that stage) took out loans to cover costs which they (and us) will be paying back for years to come.

I know my sister was asked many times if she would support, when my niece was dating - and she was NOT looking for a learning boy. These were boys who were in school, and the shidduch did not get to the dating stage since sis was not going to support (and niece had a very decent job/career with an advanced degree.)

Last edited by Chayalle on Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:08 am; edited 1 time in total

simcha2

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:00 am

[quote="Chayalle"]

simcha2 wrote:

All the law and med students I know (including when dh was at that stage) took out loans to cover costs which they (and us) will be paying back for years to come.[/quote

I know my sister was asked many times if she would support, when my niece was dating - and she was NOT looking for a learning boy. These were boys who were in school, and the shidduch did not get to the dating stage since sis was not going to support (and niece had a very decent job/career with an advanced degree.)

That's my point. There is something wrong when boys (and their parent's) don't think that it is the boy's obligation to support his wife. They are completely not fulfilling their obligation according to the kesuba and what we learn from our avos.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:07 am

amother wrote:

Maybe it's me, but what is the benefit of this lifestyle of having so many men learn fulltime? This was not typical a few generations ago unless you were an amazing scholar. Why can't a man get a job to help support his family and then learn on the side afterwards? I think learning is great, but the right thing is to take care of your family first. After you are doing what you need to do to support your family, then use your additional time to learn.

My oldest child is a boy. I've been teaching him since day one the importance of getting a job when he grows up. He will not be getting any guaranteed financial support from me after he moves out. I can't afford it. Both my husband and I work fulltime, middle class white collar jobs. We'll never be rich, but B"H we make ends meet. We own our own home, (only because we have a 2nd mortgage, interest free from my folks) although it's small. we are not on any government programs. We live a simple frugal lifestyle and never travel.

Both my husband & I are college educated. We're going to encourage our son to get a college education too. Or at least go to a trade school or do something to gain markable skills, depending on what he's interested in doing when he grows up. My son will have to support himself and when he's ready to get married, he'll need to be responsible and support his family.

The benefit is advanced knowledge of Torah, and prioritizing Torah before all else.

Many generations ago, it certainly was typical for the vast majority of Jews to be scholars and very knowledgeable in Torah - many would have a business for just a few hours a day, and the rest of the day they would learn.

In the generation of, say, my great-grandparents, there was unfortunately wide-spread ignorance of Torah. I have read many books about European countries, where there were Jews who had tremendous respect for Torah and scholars, but many of them were unlearned themselves. People were really really poor, and worked hard just to put bread on the table, and the suffering they had in the lands they lived in - all this contributed to this. There certainly were those who sacrificed to learn Torah, in every generation.

When a man spends the best hours of his day working, his learning will not be the same. I'm not making this up - I have actually heard this expressed often from people I know who work and are Kovea Itim. I also know those who have the best intentions but after a long day of work, they just don't get to the Kovea Itim...and Sundays, the barely get to learn, family responsibilities end up trumping it.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:12 am

simcha2 wrote:

A couple can make whatever arrangement suits them.

Many years ago I had a manager - a Catholic man - who left the job to become a SAHD so his wife could accept a promotion at work that made sense for them financially. Is there something wrong with that, or was this couple entitled to make a decision that worked for them? This man happened to be a very loving Dad, and his wife enjoyed the work place. It worked for them, so they made that choice together.

I think the problem is only when there's an expectation that is not really what the couple wants, and people feel pressured into a lifestyle.

amother

Black

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:34 am

amother wrote:

When checking references I ask if the parents are in a position to support, because I'd be happier if the answer were yes..

How would references know?
The type of family my sons would be comfortable with wouldn't be likely to have money for support. Or so I thought. I've heard about yerushos, real estate bought with chasuna money with support for the kids in mind, other things but I wouldn't expect references to know.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:38 am

simcha2 wrote:

All the law and med students I know (including when dh was at that stage) took out loans to cover costs which they (and us) will be paying back for years to come.

Probably. But even if they're on scholarship a couple needs someone to be bringing in money for the basics - food, rent, etc.

simcha2

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:50 am

Chayalle wrote:

It's a false argument. We are not talking about an individual couple who have been married for years making a joint decision. We are talking about whether someone would even consider an engagement if the girl (our her family) doesn't agree to support. When, she has no halachic obligation to do so, but he does.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 10:51 am

Chayalle wrote:

Believe me, I am for kollel. (Though I think Yonasan Rosenblum's article "Chemotherapy as Metaphor" on www.cross-currents.com is pretty interesting.)

But re your last paragraph, I know people, very well, who have become great lamdanim through their years of 5-9 learning, as compromised as it may have been. One was an international expert in an arcane area of halacha. And a few years ago, Hamodia's Inyan magazine had an interview with a remarkable man from E"Y named Gil Tal who IIRC is an engineer and in the years since he decided to devote his time to serious Torah study has become a serious lamdan.

And then, what of the kollel man who leaves learning? He could read that last paragraph and get really, really demoralized. I bet there are some kollel wives here who are reading that paragraph with horror. And re family responsibilities eating up time - there are tekufos in life when yes, family responsibilities will be more time-consuming. One can say, these are the years I need to be here more and it's not a bedieved, it's a bracha and bonding time for my family. We'll do our best not to let it get out of hand and I'll keep the engine oiled so that when life allows me more discretionary time I'll be able to go back to that longer, more intense learning.

And let me end with a challenge: to anyone who likes my post, and whose husband is not or was never in kollel, what kind of quantity and quality time learning is going on in your family? Last year, in discussing the shevatim in the division of Eretz Yisrael at the end of sefer Yehoshua, Rabbi Reisman spoke about Rav Schwab's views on those whose primary life focus is learning, and those who might be called the quintessential TIDE Jews. Yes, Rav Schwab was greatly influenced by his years in Lithuanian yeshivos and was enamored of the former. But he had equal respect for the faithful soldiers, those working men whose lives were models of true Torah living. The upshot, and the challenge is: whatever you are doing in life, are you doing it lechatchila? Don't settle for a bedieved life.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 11:21 am

Pinkfridge, I don't disagree with you. I too have enormous respect for those who put in solid learning after working 9-5. My own father - he should live to 120 - comes to mind - learning every night, and much of Sundays, getting up at 5 a.m. to do the Daf - when he retired and went back to full time learning, it wasn't such a difficult transition, because he never really left learning. In fact, when he questioned my wanting to marry a learning boy, I told him HE was my role model. Who was it that has made a Siyum on Shas several times? Who always had a Sefer with him, while keeping an eye on us in the park, or sitting with me in the emergency room when I injured my leg as a teen? My father's learning kept him going, even in the painful years of my mother's illness, and now.

If you would ask my father, though, he would tell you that it was far from easy...and that NOW is the best years of his learning (and also when he was single). And I'm not saying that a man should shirk his responsibilities to family. But an amother questioned the benefit of full time learning, and it deserved an answer.

I worked with a really special man from Passaic, who told me that the best hours of his day are the evening, when he goes to his shiur. But it's not easy.

A Kollel man who transitions to going to work should definitely keep in touch with his Rabbeim if he wants to be successful in being Kovea Itim. My role model for this is DH's oldest brother (hi any of his family who reads this) who is an example of this - his Chavrusahs are steady and set up, and he keeps up his learning. From what I've seen, those who try to go it alone are less successful.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 11:26 am

simcha2 wrote:

A man who wants to study Torah is making an individual decision and is looking for a girl who shares his goals and aspirations. If it works for them, they are entitled to make that choice.

My own personal opinion is that this fine, as long as he does not expect to live a lifestyle that negates that....and lots of the "looking for money and support" pretty much tells you what a young man really is looking for. I've already posted about this, early on in this thread.

greenfire

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 12:30 pm

this whole conversation irks me ... perhaps it's the lack of monies, but I don't think so

shidduchim shouldn't be based on financial aspect anymore than it should be based on male parts matched to female parts ...

whatever happened to a match made on personalities that get along, on likes & hopes & dreams & mutual amorous feelings

Water Stones

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 1:06 pm

When I was in shudduch I told my parents I want a working boy who learns because I want to be only a wife and mother. My parents are not poor but they can't afford support for us so they were happy I wanted a working boy. They didn't ask about money to his parents, only how's his business, can he support wife and children.

BH it's a good match for us. He works and I work the home and I support his learning every night chavrusa.

We will teach our sons to work trade or college so they can support their family.

zaq

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:01 pm

greenfire wrote:

whatever happened to a match made on personalities that get along, on likes & hopes & dreams & mutual amorous feelings

For that you have to go to the Modern Orthodox crowd.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:07 pm

greenfire wrote:

What happens is, when real life sets in, sometimes that match made on personalities, hopes, dreams, and feelings gets really stretched, and some of those hopes and dreams get dashed, and some of those feelings get tested.

I once heard that a big Gadol (I think it was R' Bick but I might be wrong) said that a high percentage of the SB issues he sees are due to financial issues...something like 90% could be relieved with enough parnassah.

So having a financial plan is often a big part of getting married...not saying it should be the only factor...but it's a factor.

sequoia

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:09 pm

Rich parents = financial plan?

Woe to the rest of us.

Chayalle

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:10 pm

sequoia wrote:

Rich parents = financial plan?

Woe to the rest of us.

Agree....what about the grandkids? What would be their financial plan?

zaq

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:38 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Agree....what about the grandkids? What would be their financial plan?

Rich in-laws.

amother

Lemon

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:44 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Agree....what about the grandkids? What would be their financial plan?

That would be my generation (young 20s and below). My grandfather was a millionaire. He supported most of his children, and all of them had 10+ children.

There's no family money left.

I refused to go through the indignity of dating entitled yeshiva guys who wanted to sit and learn while their in-laws wined and dined them, even though my parents wanted me to. They were willing to go into debt to snag a learning boy.

I married a true mensch who wasn't looking for a ticket to luxury that had a girl thrown in for good measure. We both contribute financially for our family. My parents are still heartbroken, oh well.

amother

Copper

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 2:54 pm

I recently saw a billboard with the following message: Your In-Laws are not a Retirement Plan. It wasn't even targeted at kollelleit. It was for young people everywhere, encouraging saving and fiscal responsibility.

PinkFridge

Wed, Mar 15 2017, 3:18 pm

Chayalle wrote:

Pinkfridge, I don't disagree with you..

I didn't think you did Tongue Out

It's just such a polarized world. The option to become the men our fathers' generation were/are doesn't seem so viable.
Leaving kollel wasn't easy for my husband, but it was inevitable and appropriate. No angst, second guessing, whatever, and he knew who he wanted to become in this new stage of life.

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