My dilemma...another one, I know, I'm sorry

amother

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 7:40 pm

A. Maybe you can ask your local rav, and see if you are required to ask him to put the child done. That will put the issue to rest... If its just your comfort zone, you can deal with it for 10 seconds a day.

B. You can tell this guy, "Please have your wife give me a call. I'd like to speak with her". You can simply explain that you don't feel comfortable....

By the way, I'm chassidish too, and sometimes, you have to go a little bit out of your comfort zone.. What do you do if the cashier guy gives you change in your hand,.. do you move your hand away, and let the coins drop on the floor.

How ironic, it is... that the spanish guy is ok... Why's that? Or do you make him put the produce down?

amother

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 7:59 pm

I am also a babysitter. I understand what you mean I have a customer- not on regular basis (since, the wife doen't work, only when she has appointments...). they live in my apartment building. the husband usually picks the children up. when they bring the baby a infantseat,it's ok, I just put it down on the floor and the husband picks it up...but when they don't bring anything to put the kid in, and I need to hand the child over, it's pretty uncomfortable, especially when it's someone in your building that would never talk to you and neither would you talk to.
also, it does feel very uncomfortable to need to give a man detailed instructions when the baby went to sleep, woke up, what he/she had for lunch, etc.

happymom

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 8:07 pm

Quote:

have a life other than babysitting her children, I need to have a schedule. I have appointments I need to keep up. How can a person not understand this? and apparently when the baby is sleeping, like this morning, he brought her an hr and a half later than what they said yeterday. Should I charge them for that time even though she said she was coming or should I leave it bc I was home anyway?

TELL them THIS!

Mommy3.5

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 8:33 pm

RivkiA wrote:

Why should I lower my standards for a modern guy who doesnt get the freaking concept of tznius???
I think you're completetky wrong, maybe doing something uncomfortable that you don't like to do is in the job requirements but to lower yourself to do it is just wrong.

No offense, but it's really NOT a tzniut issue at all. The only person who cannot hand you a baby, is your husband, and that is ONLY if you are a niddah. Even if you were niddah, it would not apply to other men.

A person is not going to come in and put his child on the floor, and if you do not want him in your apartment, how on earth is the baby going to be given to you?

cindy324

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 11:43 pm

Quote:

also, it does feel very uncomfortable to need to give a man detailed instructions when the baby went to sleep, woke up, what he/she had for lunch, etc.

It does??? It's like a business transaction, for goodness sake! Just as if you worked in a grocery and a man came in to pick up his order, and he'd ask :"Is everything in there?" You would say: "A bottle of milk, a loaf of bread, 2 dozen eggs and a box of Cheerios. Thank you "
So with the baby, you hand him over and say, "He slept an hour, had a 4 oz. bottle at 3, and his diaper was changed . "

DefyGravity

Mon, Sep 17 2007, 11:51 pm

I think it's very normal for a parent to ask what his child did during the day! Don't most parents ask for a detailed report? Isn't it important for them to know if their kid ate, pooped, etc.? A child's schedule is very important, and if something veered from normal, it could be that something is wrong with the child. If they didn't eat, it can be a sign of sickness, constipation, etc.

mumoo

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 12:34 am

peach wrote:

From what I understand, your real issue is not taking the child he hands to you or talking to him for 2 minutes, but its more the fact that he doesn't hand the child to you, but wants you to reach into his arms and take the child that way. I can understand how that makes you uncomfortable.

This is how I understood it. I, too, would be uncomfortable. To those making fun of Rivkie for this: would you be ok if the UPS man cradled a package in his arms and made you reach into them and peel it out?

technic wrote:

u cant expect him to KNOW abt negia..

why not?

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 12:39 am

mumoo wrote:

peach wrote:

I wasn't making fun of her. I was, however, trying to make her understand that the level that she's holding to (where she won't even talk to a man in a professional relationship, etc., is not a mainstream position.

Quote:

technic wrote:

u cant expect him to KNOW abt negia..

why not?

Because most of us would not have a problem taking a baby from someone. So, there is no reason for her to think that *he* would know that she is uncomfortable taking a baby directly from him.

The simple and smart thing to do would be for her to simply tell him so... but she seems unwilling to do that. So, she expects him to be a mindreader.

Tammy

amother

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 12:58 am

Quote:

It actually IS an issue, but the issue is on the man, not on the lady. There is a chumra that a man should not hand something/ or receive something directly to or from a strange woman. So in this case if the man doesn't care.... but I do understand that RivkiA would feel uncomfortable 'pulling' the child out of his hand.

Quote:

A person is not going to come in and put his child on the floor, and if you do not want him in your apartment, how on earth is the baby going to be given to you?

I babysit too, and actually I do have men (chaseedish/yeshivish) come in with their babies and put them down on the floor or couch, and I pick them up right away. And they dont come all the way into the apartment and shmooze with me.

But Rivki, if you knew what type of guy this is, why are you surprised that hes acting this way?

mumoo

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 1:04 am

TammyTammy wrote:

Because most of us would not have a problem taking a baby from someone. So, there is no reason for her to think that *he* would know that she is uncomfortable taking a baby directly from him.
Tammy

once again, it's not taking something handed over, it's being forced to extract something that is close to a man's body

TammyTammy wrote:

The simple and smart thing to do would be for her to simply tell him so... but she seems unwilling to do that. So, she expects him to be a mindreader.

Tammy

why shouldn't a frum man already be aware that not handing over (or even putting down) the baby makes it hard to avoid contact?

I took my baby to work for two years in a kollel office. All the rabbis took turns holding her at one time or another. It was understood that you hold out or put down the baby to eliminate the possibility of contact.

amother

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 1:52 am

I also do childcare in my home, and I can understand the uncomfortable feeling around men dropping off their children. B"H, most of the men I deal with are from the same community I am and are fairly sensitive to these issues. When I'm basically alone in my house (even though the door is wide open) with a strange man, I do feel a little weird even taking a backpack or something easy to pass directly from his hand. I try to avoid it, but I wouldn't make and issue of it if it happens. I don't make tons of conversation, but I do try to say something about the child's day at pick up time. Parents want to know these things, mothers and fathers. With a baby, I would have no problem asking a man to put his baby on the floor or a seat or something. I try to make it a nice place, a fuzzy blanket on the floor with toys, an area set-up with dolls, or a comfy bouncy seat, but the child doesn't need to go directly into my arms. I will, of course, start to interact with the child as soon at he comes in my home; it's not like he'll just be plopped on the floor then I'll ignore him! Personally, I can't imagine requesting that only a woman drop off and pick up a child. Parents need to send whoever can to do these things. Schedules change, one person is no longer available, etc., but you should still be compensated for your time. I find it more annoying to wait for someone all morning than it is extra work to have the child to care for during that time.

TzenaRena

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 2:29 am

RivkiA, there's nothing wrong with your feeling about this.

I would feel this way too. I worked with a babysitting service for a bit, and the babies were mostly brought in their strollers or infant seats. If a father came to pick up his child, he would usually lift him out of the highchair himself, or if the child was playing on the floor, he would lift him up, no need to hand the child to him.

Mom2Three

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 3:48 am

amother wrote:

also, it does feel very uncomfortable to need to give a man detailed instructions when the baby went to sleep, woke up, what he/she had for lunch, etc.

What I used to do when I babysat was keep a little daily log for each child. I made sections for naps, feedings, diaper changes, etc. Then just jotted down what time he slept or times diaper was changed, how much food and when. When the parents came for the children, I'd give them the slip of paper. That way even if things were hectic or they were in a hurry at pickup time, they'd get all the info and it really didn't take up much time during the day to jot things down quickly on the notepad.

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 3:50 am

Look, the fact that she has an extreme outlook on what constitutes tznius, negiah, yichud and a whole mess of other Mitzvot is besides the point.

The fact that she has an insulting outlook on Modern Orthodox Jews (nothing new on this site, btw) and Mexicans is also besides the point.

What IS the point is that she's in a situation that she's uncomfortable in and is apparently incapable of resolving the problem.

Well, why not have your husband talk to the guy? If your husband is the one who talks to all men for you, he should talk to the baby's father for you.

amother

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 5:42 am

kmelion, for the record , she is not extreme, she is following halacha, read the "magic touch" by gila manolson who says that you shouldn't even hand money to a cashier. This statement is just as insulting as the statement about MO. It's a known thing that MO tend to be a bit more meikil, maybe you aren't but quite a few are. I have cousins who think it's okay to touch when nidda as long as you don't.... they are MO. My mother is MO and couldn't for the life of her figure out why my dh and I couldn't lie in bed together with our baby after he was born as long as we didn't do anything. Rivka is just going by her experience with MO ppl which has some reality to it.

I think that you should just have him put the kid in a walker type thing etc. or just push the carriage into your house. Very Happy

zeldy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 5:45 am

The reason the father wants her to take the baby from his arms is b/c the child is sleeping and he doesn't want her to wake up? Otherwise why wouldn't he just put her down to play if she is a year old already?

Also the idea about logs is a good one. You should have a paper that goes home for each child and just give this to the father.

You are also frustrated because you haven't really decided on how you want to run your business- per hour rate or flat fee. You should talk to some other providers in your area and figure this out, but don't take out your frustrations on the poor man. If you haven't made your policies clear, your customers will do whatever is cheapest and most convenient for them, not you.

BeershevaBubby

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 6:23 am

amother wrote:

kmelion, for the record , she is not extreme, she is following halacha, read the "magic touch" by gila manolson who says that you shouldn't even hand money to a cashier.

The things that Rivki listed, especially the parts how she doesn't deal with men at all (except Mexicans) and waits for her husband to take care of things IS on the extreme side of things. I didn't say it's bad, but she obviously needs to find a better way to deal with her decision to be more Makpid when others around her aren't.

amother

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 10:54 am

OP you say you don't have to deal with men in stores etc. bec your husband deals with them...well guess what that means he is out in stores and dealing with woman too! is it not tznius when he talks to woman?? or only when you talk to men????

good luck, with an outlook like that I hope you don't have a nervous breakdown.

yersp

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:07 am

Why is everyone attacking the OP on her beliefs??? Everyone does whatever it is they want to do. If the OP believes that this is the right way for her to handle fremdeh men, well, so be it. It should'nt be your concern. There are a lot of things that people do that irk me much more than the OP not talking to fremdeh men. LEAVE HER ALONE. She wanted ideas on how to deal with her present situation, thats all. She didnt ask any of you about how you deal with these tznius issues on a day to day basis. So you do talk to the grocer, fine, the op doesnt. So you do take change from the grocers hands, good for you, the op doesnt. I really don't see how that's very relevant now to this thread. If anyone can enlighten me, please do so.
On a side note, if you do want to attack the op, why don't you have the guts to do so under your sn?? So you think that thats what the post anonymously button is all about??
Stop insulting the op and chassidishkyt because I'm starting to take offense.