My dilemma...another one, I know, I'm sorry

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:08 am

amother wrote:

kmelion, for the record , she is not extreme, she is following halacha, read the "magic touch" by gila manolson who says that you shouldn't even hand money to a cashier.

I think you might be confusing a chumra or a hiddur with halacha. AFAIK, there is no halacha that states that you can't take or give money to a cashier.

Quote:

This statement is just as insulting as the statement about MO. It's a known thing that MO tend to be a bit more meikil, maybe you aren't but quite a few are.

Not following every chumra does not mean that one is meikel.

Quote:

I have cousins who think it's okay to touch when nidda as long as you don't.... they are MO. My mother is MO and couldn't for the life of her figure out why my dh and I couldn't lie in bed together with our baby after he was born as long as we didn't do anything.

If they don't keep taharas hamishpacha, I would venture that by most people's definition, they are not Orthodox at all.

Tammy

Last edited by TammyTammy on Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:11 am; edited 1 time in total

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:10 am

Rosycheeks wrote:

Why is everyone attacking the OP on her beliefs??? Everyone does whatever it is they want to do. If the OP believes that this is the right way for her to handle fremdeh men, well, so be it. It should'nt be your concern. There are a lot of things that people do that irk me much more than the OP not talking to fremdeh men. LEAVE HER ALONE. She wanted ideas on how to deal with her present situation, thats all. She didnt ask any of you about how you deal with these tznius issues on a day to day basis. So you do talk to the grocer, fine, the op doesnt. So you do take change from the grocers hands, good for you, the op doesnt. I really don't see how that's very relevant now to this thread. If anyone can enlighten me, please do so.
On a side note, if you do want to attack the op, why don't you have the guts to do so under your sn?? So you think that thats what the post anonymously button is all about??
Stop insulting the op and chassidishkyt because I'm starting to take offense.

Rosy,

My problem isn't with her extreme views on tznius... in fact I said that above. My problem is that she expects everyone else to cater to her level without informing them. I don't have a problem with the fact that she doesn't want to take a baby from the man... I have a problem with the fact that she won't even tell him the problem so as to resolve the problem. She expects him to read her mind. She has a very simple solution at hand -- tell him not to do this again -- and she refuses to take it. That's my problem with her.

Tammy

yersp

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:13 am

TammyTammy wrote:

Rosycheeks wrote:

ahhhhhhhhhhhh!!! I see what youre saying, and youre right...............in any case the person/people who wrote nasty stuff under amother know I mean them.

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:44 am

amother wrote:

Quote:

I have cousins who think it's okay to touch when nidda as long as you don't.... they are MO. My mother is MO and couldn't for the life of her figure out why my dh and I couldn't lie in bed together with our baby after he was born as long as we didn't do anything.

If they don't keep taharas hamishpacha, I would venture that by most people's definition, they are not Orthodox at all.

Tammy

Why is that? they do 5 and 7. They just dont.... they keep kosher and shabbos.

To my knowledge (and I certainly could be wrong -- but I don't think so) the harchakos are not mere chumros, but are a vital and integral part of THM. True that min-hatorah, you don't have to keep the harchakos... but then again, min-hatorah you can have chicken and milk together --- but you wouldn't say a person who does is keeping kashrus.

Tammy

gold21

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 12:18 pm

OP, my suggestion is to weigh the pros and cons of this babysitting situation. if you are too uncomfortable during the times that a father will pick up a baby or drop him off, then babysitting is likely not the occupation for you. it is pretty common for a father to drop off/pick up a baby, so if this bothers you very much, maybe look into another job option. also, maybe you can be more selective about the babies you take, and only take those whose parents share your hashkafos. additionally, maybe ask your rav for his advice...

Mommastuff

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 12:54 pm

HEavy topic, indeed!

Rivki
1- Whether he knows of negia or not, he KNOWS he's making you uncomfortable by making you pull the baby out from his chest (jewish or not). Put out your hands, like somone suggested, or have your husband speak to him, or you leave a message on the answering machine for the wife.

2-By being all "smiley", you're letting him "walk all over you" (no pun intended Wink

!) Make changes! You write the rules here! (and keep to them). If they can't keep to them, boot 'em out and put up an ad for an opening for babysitting. People want a responsible babysitter!

3- You obviously have issues regarding men so you're covering it with tzinus reasons. Halacha is halacha, chumra is chumra, and being meikel is well, being meikel. But definately keep to your standards, don't put down others, because being machmir is good if it helps you become more sensitive ruchniously. Just don't be machmir for others - bad move in bein adam l'chaveiro, don't judge

and good luck!

Mom2Three

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 1:15 pm

I agree with everyone who said that you really need to let this father know what is expected. Either talk to him or his wife, or have your husband talk to him.

If none of those are options for you, and you want to continue in this work, maybe you could print up something with your expectations/guidelines/rules. Like a Memo or Newsletter kind of thing. You could have a standard one written up that you give to new clients and give one to current ones as well. You could include your fee structure, the need to know (for example) by Friday each week what the schedule will be for the following week and that if they show up late, they are still to pay the entire fee. You can include expectations as to pick-up, drop-off routines. For an infant, you can have it brought in the stroller or carseat, and specify that you will then pick up the child from the seat. If they don't come with one of those, you will have a crib/bassinet/playpen ready in which to put the child. For an older child, specify that the child is to be placed in whatever spot you designate. You can word it in such a way to sound polite, firm, and loving.

Hope this helps and good luck! Whether your views are extreme or not, you are uncomfortable with how things are now so something needs to change. I hope that you are able to work things out for the good of you, the babies, and their parents.

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 1:57 pm

Mommastuff wrote:

HEavy topic, indeed!

Rivki
1- Whether he knows of negia or not, he KNOWS he's making you uncomfortable by making you pull the baby out from his chest (jewish or not).

And how do you know that? Why are you attributing maliciousness to this person?

Quote:

2-By being all "smiley", you're letting him "walk all over you" (no pun intended Wink

!) Make changes! You write the rules here! (and keep to them). If they can't keep to them, boot 'em out and put up an ad for an opening for babysitting. People want a responsible babysitter!

Agree 100%. Written guidelines would be the best thing. This way, everyone would know what is expected of them.

Tammy

Mom2Three

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 2:09 pm

To continue with the written policies idea, I found an example here. This is for a daycare business for older children, but you can adapt to your own needs.

Notice this section:

Quote:

Dropping Off/Picking up Children

All parents are required to walk their children into my home when dropping off. Please assist your child in taking off his or her coat and shoes, and putting them away properly. Put all personal belongings in their cubby (blankets, extra clothing, etc.) Drop offs must be fairly brief, the longer parents stay in the morning, the longer children have to think about separating from their parents for the day.

Something like this would be great to include, modifying it to say where children should be placed when dropping them off.

Quote:

Tuition/Payment Policy

Your specific rate will be discussed and agreed upon in your payment and rate agreement contract. Payment is due the FIRST day of care each week at drop off time. I accept payment of checks or cash. Checks may be used as long as no checks are returned to me with non-sufficient funds. If a check is returned to me with non-sufficient funds you will be required to pay all fees as a result of a returned check. Your child will not be able to return to First Discoveries Child Care Home until full payment of fees AND tuition is paid in CASH. After a check is returned CASH ONLY will be accepted as a form of payment from your family.

Late Payment Fee
Payment is due the first day of care each week at drop off time. If payment is not received at that time a late fee of $20.00 will be charged for EVERY day that payment is not received (including weekends). If payment is late more than three times care can/will be terminated.

Late Pick up FeeA late fee will occur when your child is at First Discoveries Child Care home past 5:30 PM. If you are going to be late please call me and let me know, as I might have personal plans after my working hours. A fee will be added to your childcare cost for anything over 10 hours of care. The first ten minutes tardy will result in a $5.00 charge. If you are more than 10 minutes late a fee of $1.00 per minute will be added to your total charge. For example if you pick your child up 15 minutes late your fee will be $5.00 for the first 10 minutes and a dollar per minute after ten minutes which equals $5.00 for a total late fee of $10.00.

If you require payment the first day of each week, that should take care of the issue of them bringing the child late, since they've already paid the agreed upon fee.

I think doing something like this, for current and future clients, would help a lot to alleviate what you're going through right now. Spell out your rules and policies and make sure each parent knows exactly what is expected of them.

Again, good luck!

Mom2Three

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 2:18 pm

Come on ladies. The standards of the OP, extreme or not, are not the issue here. She needs to figure out how to deal with the situation at hand. She's welcome to hold to such a high level, but as Tammy said, its not fair for her to expect everyone else to hold the same and get upset when they don't, especially if she hasn't clearly communicated it to them. So let's help her with this specific situation and not bash her because we may not agree with her views. And if there needs to be discussion regarding this side issue, can't it be done, nicely, in a different thread?

mummiedearest

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 8:54 pm

as far as malicious intent--

some people, men and women alike, are not sensitive to facial expressions. he may not notice, especially if the woman in question always looks uncomfortable around him. he may just think this is her natural face.

sorry to bring up a moot topic, but here goes-

I would like to go over some terms used on this thread.

a) litvish- this originally means with lithuanian ancestry/customs. (from the word lita- lithuania) it is now commonly used instead of misnagdish. litvish connotes actual roots, misnagdish connotes the opposite of chassidish. both terms are now considered one because the misnagdim were centered in lithuania. the misnagdim were a movement, just as chassidism is and was.

b)chassidish-- see above. it is possible to be litvish in origin and chassidish in action. it is also possible to integrate a mix of customs into one lifestyle.

c)orthodox-- what a part of judaism had to be referred to as as a result of the conservative and reform movements. not a movement in itself.

d)modern orthodox-- an uncharted territory. there is no set definition. obviously relating to orthodoxy. obviously accepting of certain modern aspects of the world. some may be considered MO for attending college. others may be considered so because of laxer attitudes in general. each community will define people very differently based on its own standards, but these standards are not clear cut. labeling someone as modern orthodox is a very shaky business and tells us nothing. it is not based on a specific movement, and does not follow a specific set of laws or ideals. therefore, I think it ridiculous to use the term at all.

I personally don't see how one is supposed to label oneself. I don't know what I am. I think orthodox is good enough to label me. I also take issue with calling someone "frummer" than someone else. as a rule, you do not know the definition of a word if you cannot explain it in words that do not share the same root as the original word. so if you cannot define the phrase "modern orthodox" in clear cut english, how can you use the term at all?

maybe I should have started a new thread with this one Smile

TammyTammy

Tue, Sep 18 2007, 11:56 pm

Mommastuff wrote:

TammyTammy wrote:

Mommastuff wrote:

HEavy topic, indeed!

Rivki
1- Whether he knows of negia or not, he KNOWS he's making you uncomfortable by making you pull the baby out from his chest (jewish or not).

And how do you know that? Why are you attributing maliciousness to this person?

either he knows by her facial expression or she has to show it or tell him

But you're assuming that he picks up on facial cues. A lot of people (my DH included) don't always do so. And she already said that she didn't tell him. So, don't assume that he knows and is being malicious. You just don't know this and it would serve you well do be dan l'kaf zchus unless you happen to know Rivki and this man and know for sure that he is purposely causing her to feel uncomfortable with malicious intent.

Tammy

Mom2Three

Wed, Sep 19 2007, 11:57 am

Sue DaNym wrote:

rivkia dont let anyone tell you to lower your standards. you dont have to take the baby from him and you dont have to talk to men at all. dont let some people think that you are freakish for avoiding men at all times its great and wonderful and im proud of you.

and remember that its your house and you make the rules on when pickup should be and who can pickup and dropoff. dont let that man bully you or dictate terms.

I agree. She should make the rules. But she needs to clearly communicate those rules to her clients. Otherwise, how can they know they are in violation of her rules?