Isnt it expensive to have guests?

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 9:45 am

Anyway, to get back to the topic at hand, which is the cost of entertaining: I find there are three things that contribute to the extra cost of entertaining:
1. Variety: I'll cook just one main dish, one side dish, one vegetable dish for family, but feel the need to do more when guests come over, because you never know what they'll like. And because you want to make the experience extra nice.
2. Specialness. I tend to make "nicer" things when company comes over; for example, I'd rather cook asparagus than broccoli.
3. Quantity. If I'm inviting over a family that's my size, I will not just double the quantities, because I don't want to be caught short-handed.

(There's also a fourth -- dessert -- that applies only to me, because I'm too lazy to make dessert on a regular Shabbat.)

You can decide to cut back on expenses by not doing all three. So maybe you'll do the variety, but you'll stick to broccoli instead of asparagus. Or maybe you'll stick with one main dish, but have two side dishes. Or something like that.

SixOfWands

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 9:53 am

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

SixOfWands, of course one Shabbat won't affect kids' eating habits, neither for good nor for bad. (I have no illusions that the kids who come to my house for Shabbat beg their parents for cantaloupe and cucumbers at their next Shabbat meal.) But overall, yes, feeding kids "kid food" does not make for healthy eating habits. Chicken nuggets aren't just small pieces of chicken schnitzel; they are often made of inferior quality chicken (like ground chicken, including skin). And even when making schnitzel, the smaller the pieces you fry, the higher the proportion of oil and breading (the less healthy stuff) to chicken (the healthier stuff). You yourself suggested the kids' table as a way to save money. If you're not serving food that is is in some way inferior to adult food, why are you doing it?

I understand the problem of having a small dining room -- I have one myself -- and I understand that there are different approaches to the problem. I happen to think there's a real value in having kids be part of a Shabbat family experience, rather than what I find is typical in my community, where kids run off outside or to the playroom after the first course, only to return for dessert. But that's not what I was addressing here. You can set up kids in a separate room, and still not feed them junk food.

(Incidentally, is the kids' table more of an MO thing than a JPF or Yeshivish thing? My old neighborhood was more mixed, and as I've said, I do not remember the kids' table trend there. And if it is an MO thing, why?)

BTW, I am not the one who hugged you. I don't hug to indicate lack of agreement.

We make our own chicken fingers (cheaper than buying), and don't fry anything, almost ever.

But yes, chicken fingers, pasta with meat sauce, mini hamburgers, and drumsticks are much less expensive than brisket or London broil and whole pieces of chicken. Fresh tomato salsa is less expensive than avocado and tomato salad. Roasted carrots are cheaper than asparagus. Not all "kids' food" is junk. Not all "adult food" is healthful. You're conflating cost and nutrition. It doesn't work that way.

[BTW, here, its much more common for kids to hear motzei and kiddush, skip the fish and salads, come back for the main course, and then bentch and skip dessert.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 10:04 am

SixOfWands wrote:

SixOfWands, I understand what you're saying, and if that's the way you do the kids' table, you're correct, it's not less healthy. I don't find that whole pieces -- a chicken cut into eighths -- is less expensive than using chicken cutlets, but that's probably location dependent. In any case, here kids' tables consist of chicken nuggets and cold cuts and hot dogs and corn chips, and are definitely much less healthy. Neither asparagus nor carrots are offered.

I still have an issue with kids running off in the middle of the meal. When does it stop? I see kids doing it even in high school! To me, it's shocking; I expect five- or six-year-olds to be able to make it through most of a meal. And most kids live up to one's expectations. (This is not directed at you, but at the general custom.)

pause

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 12:30 pm

My biggest expense when hosting is the fish. Because it's the first course and people are still hungry, I need to serve a balebatishe slice. Everything else once I'm making, doesn't cost more to make a bit more: dips, homemade challah (take out of the freezer), soup, chulent, potato kugel, ferfel, cake.

Even chicken isn't a major expense with guests because by the time I serve it, most people are full already. Nobody has ever eaten a full chicken bottom. So I don't make too much more chicken than I usually do. And anyway, a whole chicken bottom is still way cheaper than a slice fish!

allthingsblue

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 12:58 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

Omg, a five or six year old to stay for the whole meal??? I never heard of such a thing. Even at age 12 I was excused to go read if I wanted to.
I would never force my kids to stay at the table. If they want to, great! I would try make my shabbos meals engaging for them.
But if they'd rather play nicely in another room, there's no point in forcing them to stay at the table. I've never seen anyone - from MO to ultra chareidi- force their kids to stay at the table.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:08 pm

allthingsblue wrote:

It's not like meals are so awful. There's no force feeding of things they don't want to eat, and kids are engaged in conversation. It's actually nice for kids, having the attention of adults in a positive, non-confrontational way. There are no demands to perform and recite a Dvar Torah or anything like that. There are other kids for them to talk to. They're not forced. It's just what is expected.

They help take in things and take out things so it's not like they're sitting all the time, either. And it's not so long. 1.5 - 2 hours until there's the adult part, the tea and schmoozing. Is that really so long for kids to be at a meal? I don't think so. Then again, I grew up without Shabbos groups in shul, and I learned to just sit in shul for long periods of time. It's a good skill to learn.

cnc

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:13 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

My six year old (and older) is not capable of sitting for that long. I guess it depends on the individual child.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:21 pm

cnc wrote:

My six year old (and older) is not capable of sitting for that long. I guess it depends on the individual child.

Cnc, I think you are right that it depends on the individual child. It has never been a problem for us, and as I say, we never force anyone. Some guest kids always do wander off, but I always thought that was because that was what they had gotten used to. As I said earlier, I see high school kids wandering off, and they certainly can sit for a few hours, so training probably plays a role. AndI think getting kids engaged in serving and passing also helps.

nylon

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:21 pm

on the challah math, let's see.

I live out of town. For me to make:
Flour is $3.89 for 5 lbs.
Eggs, $1.19 a dozen (price went way down recently)
Oil $4.99/qt (I buy safflower, more expensive, you could buy cheaper)
Sugar about $3 for 4 lbs (I forget the price, sometimes I get it from Costco even cheaper)
Yeast I buy in bulk: 1 lb yeast is $5. The strips are a ripoff
Salt, which is pennies.

My recipe comes out to about $4 per batch, 4 nice sized loaves (I can't do 5 lbs at a time). No way I would buy except in an emergency (or this year, for Shabbat Hagadol)

amother

Crimson

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:39 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I have no idea where you live, but these prices do not at all match what food costs here.

How can you make 4 loaves for one euro, approximately $1.10? Flour, oil, sugar, yeast, eggs, all cost. Even if you are talking about small rolls (and that is not enough challah when you are making a meal for more than 2-3 people), that would cost me more than $1.10.

A chicken for chicken soup costs me $12 even on sale; it can cost as much as $16. Vegetables and herbs just add to the cost. Even chicken bones cost here; they are over $2 a pound. And you need more than chicken bones for a tasty soup.

Even lemons for lemon sorbet are expensive.

I am not saying that hosting has to be a budget breaker, but the prices quoted above are not realistic for most people in the U.S. And I've never heard that food in Europe is cheaper.

I ingredients for 4 medium sized challes:

1 kg flour - 42 cents
1 pagage of yeast - 11 cents
1 egg - 17 cents
1 cup oil - 35 cents
sugar, and salt

I dont count the sesame or poppyseeds that I sprinkle on top...

yes meat and fish is expencive here but chicken bones are cheap: 1 kg - 3,90- I use 1/2 kg but add onions and veggies that are either on sale or almost for free.- why do you assume it doesnt taste good? most guests love it and want a second serving. I also make soups from other parts of the chicken and add turkey necks, beef bones, sweet potatoes etc. but these ingerdients are significantly more expencive- I also make whole spelt challah with honey and walnuts ... but when money is tight this comes out very delicious too, its a nice alternative. honestly I doubt my guests mind, cos they come again... if my food was sooo bad I doubt they would viluntarily return.

oh and yes you arte right prices vary depending on where you live. I lived in a differnt country before and prices were much higher (also average salery was higher though)

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 1:57 pm

amother wrote:

Thanks for explaining, crimson amother. I think the difference in challah cost is that I use a lot more eggs for four loaves, and that flour is much more expensive where I live. As far as the chicken soup, if you can make a great-tasting soup just from chicken bones and onions, more power to you. My chicken soup is thin and watery unless I put a lot of chicken and vegetables in it. And vegetables are expensive here; the parsnips, celery, carrots, and onions that I use in an 8 quart pot (yielding 5-6 quarts of soup) cost at least $2; the dill costs $1 more ($2 a bunch, but I use half); and that is on top of the chicken.

essie14

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 2:04 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I still have an issue with kids running off in the middle of the meal. When does it stop? I see kids doing it even in high school! To me, it's shocking; I expect five- or six-year-olds to be able to make it through most of a meal. And most kids live up to one's expectations. (This is not directed at you, but at the general custom.)

I do not expect my teenagers to stay at the table when we have company who don't have kids their age or when we are guests at a family without kids their age. It's super boring for them. All the families in my neighborhood know that the teens leave early. I'd never be able to accept invitations if my kids were forced to sit at the table. Even when there are kids their age, all the kids tend to leave together and let the adults socialize.

Raisin

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 2:17 pm

JoyInTheMorning wrote:

I estimated my challah cost recently. (looking at how much a bottle of oil costs eg and dividing it buy how much I use per recipe) I spend €4.20 on ingredients to make 6lbs of challah dough. (ie dough using 6lbs of flour) From this I make approx ten medium-large challahs. So each challah costs 42c. I use the more expensive strong bread flour, if I would use plain flour it would cost €3 per batch of dough. So close to one euro for 4 challos. I could also get wholesale bags of bread flour for a lot less money but the hassle of dividing it up into bags is not worth it to save €1.20 per week.

I also live in a more expensive country in the EU. Other countries definitely have lower grocery prices.

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 2:34 pm

Raisin wrote:

Thanks, Raisin. It's interesting to see how prices vary so widely, and especially interesting to find out that groceries in Europe can cost less than groceries in the U.S. (I had always heard that groceries in the U.S. were much cheaper than in Europe.)

My costs are more in line with what nylon posted above. According to my calculations, if I am using bulk yeast and safflower rather than olive oil (which is still more expensive than safflower), I spend a bit over $1.25 per loaf. We all seem to agree that store-bought challah is much too expensive; the question really is how low in cost a homemade loaf can be. I think the differences come down to cost of staples, type of ingredients (bread vs. all-purpose flour, olive oil vs. safflower oil vs. soybean oil), and recipe (e.g., how many eggs are used).

amother

Crimson

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 2:55 pm

dear JoyInTheMorning,

prices in europe vary incredibly.

ive lived in several countries in europe and I have payed 39 cents, 42 cents, one euorpe for regular flour.

now if you purchase organic whole wheat, spelt or other special grain from special mills and special farmers prices are much higher obviously. in my example I just wanted to calculate the lowcost version.

I remember paying 4 euro for the same toohpaste ive bought across the border for 2. so it really depends where you are buying (which shop and which country in europe).

paris I remember was much more expencive than the place I live now, whereas berlin was cheaper. london was also more expencive, whereas budapest was cheaper.... so you really cannot generalise european prices. I happen to live in a realtively cheap country now (please note income also varies a lot!)

im interested to know (pure curiosity): are US prices standard prices? like will a bottle of milk cost you the same in michigan as in ny as in florida??? (same brand and size)

JoyInTheMorning

Sun, Mar 26 2017, 3:24 pm

amother wrote:

Amother crimson, prices in the U.S vary a lot between cities for produce and Kosher products; not so much for staples. I have heard that if you go outside of a major metropolitan area -- for example, if you are in rural Kansas -- prices are cheaper, but usually religious Jews don't live in places like that. Then there is also the issue of making sure to shop in a reasonably priced market. You can pay anywhere from $3 to $5 or even $6 for a gallon of milk, and even more if you buy it by the quart (liter) or half-gallon. So obviously, you try to go to the market that has milk for around $3 a gallon, and you buy the gallon container. (This is for non-Chalav Yisrael.) Milk prices are mostly independent of brand. I buy the store brand, since it is cheapest. For things like toothpastes and other sundries that you can stock up on, you absolutely must look for sales. Yes, you can pay $1.50 for a tube of toothpaste, or $4, depending on the sale. The same is true for dishwashing liquid and soap and ibuprofen. But staples like regular bread flour doesn't go on that much of a sale -- it's either $4 or $5 for a 5 pound bag (2.27 kilo) -- so it is between $1.76 and $2.20 a kilo. That is a whole lot more than it is in Europe.

When I lived in NYC I could find many sales on produce. For example, in the winter, I could get a nice grapefruit for .25 or .35. Where I live now, grapefruits are $1 or more; sometimes you will get them for .80. Same for apples, oranges, celery, broccoli, tomatoes, and berries. It's just more expensive here. I still live in a major metropolitan area, so this is surprising.