Living off government programs

amother

Mustard

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 8:39 pm

I disagree.

Programs are there to provide for low income families. Assuming you are hinting your reporting there is nothing wrong.

They accept stipend as a form of income so they are aware of it and ok with it.

If you don't take (and none of the able bodied individuals who don't want to work don't either) taxes will not go down. They'll just be used for other purposes. Might as well enjoy it.

Keep in mind that many of the women do work and pay taxes as well.

Hashem_Yaazor

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 9:46 pm

Pretty sure the law is that able bodied adults need to work or be in a work-study program UNLESS they have dependents under 18...which most of these families do, and therefore it's not against the law to take.

Also, for some, kollel IS a way to moving up in the world in a klei kodesh position, it's their schooling. Not all, but some.

And of course stipends must be reported. The people I know all report it.

amother

Saddlebrown

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 9:53 pm

I think its wrong for people to send their kids to free public school if they can afford private school. They should work 2 jobs before taking advantage of free schooling. Why does the government offer schooling for free anyway? Only for those who can't afford it right? Able bodied parents shouldn't be allowed to send their kids to public school unless they can prove they are trying their best to afford private school.

Twisted Evil

How is public school any different from any other government program?

amother

Floralwhite

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 10:00 pm

amother wrote:

How is public school any different from any other government program?

1. People pay school tax so the people using it are paying for it.

2. Let's be honest. The overwhelming majority of frum families in certain neighborhoods are taking advantage of the programs and using them in a manner that they were not intended. I believe I read that 93% of a certain New York neighborhood is on medicaid. When children get married very young, immediately start having many children, have virtually no chance at making a legitimate income, I think it's fair to say this is not what programs were intended for.

watergirl

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 10:04 pm

amother wrote:

How is public school any different from any other government program?

A free education is a right of every citizen of this country. Government handouts is not. How can you even compare the two? Just makes you look ignorant, sorry. Assistance was created to be a stop gap. Not a way of life.

I've paid taxes since I was 16. So when I needed to ask for public assistance a few years ago when my life took a turn for the worse, I asked and took. And during that time, I went back to college at night and online and completed my BA degree and got a raise... now 2 years later I am off assistance. I still had a job and paid minimal taxes during that time. So did DH. For our family, the assistance fulfilled its intended purpose. Gave us a chance to improve our situation. We still struggle and its harder now not on assistance than it was before - and thats totally fine.

33055

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 10:49 pm

amother wrote:

In my county, one third of all people are on Medicaid! This accounts for 62% of the county tax budget. This is extremely stressful for ordinary homeowners who pay property tax and a giant chul hashem.

When you have a population of one community collecting benefits they are not entitled to being supported by the rest in a small area, it builds justified resentment.

I agree that one family will not make a difference in the taxes paid, but if all the families not entitled to Medicaid got off, there would definitely be relief. Perhaps the government would put in needed sidewalks in county roads or they would not raise taxes the next year.

amother

Amethyst

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 10:52 pm

amother wrote:

What is so bad about planing to live off the government programs so that you can stay in kollel?

I didn't read the responses yet, but right off the bat I will say that I dislike the statement that you (and so many) use: "live off the gov't". The government doesn't generate money by selling goods and services. The only way the government gets money if from taxing people's incomes.

So when someone decides they will live off the government (I am specifically talking about those who decide, not someone disabled or otherwise unable), what they are actually doing is deciding to not work and forcing others to work to support them. This isn't anything like a relationship between a business person and a Torah scholar, where one agrees to support the other. This is forced. Unwanted. Unfair.

amother

Brown

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 11:34 pm

Someone who sees value in the life choice of getting a degree, becoming a doctor, or other advanced schooling will usually not have an issue if this causes the student to take advantage of government assistance.

So too, someone who sees value in young men dedicating their lives to full-time Torah study will not have an issue if that causes the student to take government assistance.

33055

Sun, Apr 02 2017, 11:41 pm

amother wrote:

I don't know what percentage of able bodied people are collecting Medicaid to learn Torah, but it is far and away the minority of people. The families may have started out in khollel, but the vast overwhelming majority of families are families where the husband is making a parnosa that if reported would cause the family's Medicaid and other entitlements to be terminated.

mamaleh

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 12:13 am

Squishy wrote:

You may or may not be correct in your assessment but that is not what the op asked about. I believe brown's statement is 100% on point and on the mark. It was my first thought when I read the OP, but I decided to read through the comments before commenting. I'm glad I did because I could not have said it better!

Quote:

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 12:25 am

amother wrote:

Do you mean someone taking a student loan to complete college?

A loan is really not the same. It's paid back (or at least meant to be paid back) over time.

Social welfare programs are not loans. Nobody pays anything back, ever. I don't see the similarity really.

mamaleh

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 12:55 am

amother wrote:

Actually, from my experience (friends and their friends), it is not unusual for married students who are working on advanced degrees to 'live off' government programs.

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:02 am

mamaleh wrote:

Actually, from my experience (friends and their friends), it is not unusual for married students who are working on advanced degrees to 'live off' government programs.

Well, I don't know how common it is, but it's true that I can think of a couple of people who were in this situation.

Even so, I do see it a bit differently since it is intended as a short-term situation intended to get them to self-sufficiency. Making a life-long lifestyle of living off other people's tax dollars even though you're physically and mentally able to work is just different, don't you think?

seeker

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:05 am

amother wrote:

No, I don't think she means student loans. She means a person who is in college and therefore not earning a proper living wage and therefore applies for medicaid and food stamps to get by until they're self-sufficient.

I think it's an apt comparison in cases where kollel families have a viable future. This can be defined as broadly as you want but will not stretch to include a mass culture of defaulting to benefits for long term with no exit strategy.

I have been on both the kollel-with-a-future side and the college-with-a-future side and I think they stack up fairly well for rational, thinking people, taking the values comparison into account.

PS for those taking issue with comparing public schooling to medicaid under the argument that schooling is a right and medicaid isn't, please note that in the majority of developed countries worldwide, medical care is considered just as much of a right as public schooling (albeit with commensurately higher taxes.) Granted the US does not provide for this, but I'm just saying the comparison is not so outlandish.

And as usual, I'm kind of playing "devil's advocate" (without any actual devil) so no need for personal attacks Smile

LittleDucky

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:14 am

amother wrote:

But the government does not always allow college students to get government benefits. And this is with the realization that college students will one day be hopefully making enough to pay back into the "system" which Kollel students will not likely be able to.
When the government created these welfare programs, they did not have in mind religious study by those who choose not to work or join the workforce. Would you be ok with someone who sees value in learning Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any number of other religions out there? Would you be ok with our government supporting such study?

MagentaYenta

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:26 am

LittleDucky wrote:

Graduate students are often given tuition remission and stipends. Grad students who are organized under a collective bargaining contract may receive almost living wage salaries. Tuition remission, stipends and GTA salaries are typically counted as income for the purpose of qualifying for benefits and can kept student from receiving benefits such as SNAP or TANF if they have children. This is not true for all states, mileage may vary.

amother

Slateblue

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:32 am

my aren't some of us quick to decide.

The problem with planning to live off the gov't is that its a lousy plan. Gov't programs are mostly supplemental, meaning they only fill in gaps, they don't give you enough money to live on.

As far as honesty in reporting, for all of you who insist its lying not to report parental support, actually according to the law a gift (This refers to $ received irregularly, like only before yt) is not considered income, neither is someone paying your tuition (if done correctly) for some programs, if someone pays your bills directly, that is also not income. In addition, for most programs, charity (as in someone giving you $$) is also not income.

Just wanted to correct the record here

amother

Lilac

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:42 am

wow im so surprised to see how different countries run Smile

it must be cultural, but where I live everyone has free medical care and child benefits free gan and school (even part of private school is covered). we pay very high taxes but everything is taken care of. many can use free or almost free public transport, free museums and free daycare. (in pretty good quality). it doesnt matter if you work or re a millionaire. obviously woring people have a much easier life in the sense, that they can pay for vacation, extra insurances or nicer houses. but in general if I were to lose my job chas ve chalile and for some reason I would have financial issues, my chidlren probably wouldnt notice for quite some time, as health care school and kidnergaredn are practically free. and in such a situation I would automatically recieve money for clothes, food etc. (again I would definitely have a harder time paying for essentials, but I wouldnt be on the street and I wouldnt have to switch schools and doctors).

I wonder how it feels if you have to transition to the US system, where nothing is covered unless you have no or very little income. I guess id be a little bit scared at first, but I believe you get used to it. after all most people live that way.

this is so culutral Wink

33055

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 4:03 am

amother wrote:

You are partially correct. Gifts are no longer counted as income. It makes no sense that lump sums are not counted but monthly sums are. Then everyone would just give lump sums instead if they were going to support someone.