Living off government programs

amother

Crimson

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 9:43 am

amother wrote:

noone said you have to work like crazy- my dh doesn't. As long as he can support his family without needing outside assistance he's satisfied. Working like crazy isn't a value of his, spending time with his family is more important to him. Being self sufficient which is very different- is a value for him, please don't equate them.

My problem is that making such statements is dangerous.
My husband works 65 hrs a week, and I work 30. We have certain expenses that means we cant make it through the month so our kids are on medicaid. I know many posters will yell that we should be pulling extra hrs rather than using benefits, but I draw my line for my sanity.
As an aside, I dont know how it works in other states but in NJ, a family of 7 making between 80k & 105k is eligible for medicaid, you just have to pay premiums and dcopays. The premium is cheap though, $70 a month and copays run between $1 & $5.
So at least in NJ, so many people whos kids are on JerseyCare are making real money, just little enough by government standards for their kids to go on Jersey Care.

amother

Blue

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 9:47 am

amother wrote:

Government programs are more than just Medicaid. What about FS, section 8, TANF and other welfare programs?

amother

Crimson

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 9:58 am

amother wrote:

Government programs are more than just Medicaid. What about FS, section 8, TANF and other welfare programs?

100%, youre right. We are not eligible for those programs because their critera is much lower. Just ime every conversation like this lumps medicaid with all the others and criticizes people who are "lazy" "entitled" and "must be fudging their numbers". I was explaining the high .uber of kids in Lakewood witbh Jersey Care whose parents are working, yet their still eligible.
Is it a Jewish value to decline something youre eligible for so as not to take government funds? Why is it ok in Israel or other such countries?

leah233

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 9:59 am

In relation to what is wrong with being on programs to remain in kollel: In essence, nothing. I sometimes thinks that the stupidity of the program system and seeming inability of those who support them to grasp that if people will be better off financially by not working they won't, can only be caused by the Yad Hashem for the sake if kollel.

BUT I am vehemently opposed to people being on the programs dishonestly and once people get involved with them it is only a matter of time until most people start being dishonest . I can think of person after person that I know who insisted she would never cheat the programs but ending up doing so once she got on. And at least some of these people feel bad about it. Their children laugh at the whole concept of honest work and can't even understand why anyone would do it.

seeker

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:19 am

amother wrote:

Thank you for that explanation; I wonder how much confusion this could clear up due to imamother members coming from diverse locations.

In NY the thing you pay into is NOT called medicaid! I never realized that in NJ it is different! In NY medicaid is the thing you pay nothing for. It is for the bottom tier of income. I think something like 135% of the FPL (which is low as it is, and even lower relative to NY COL). Then if you make too much for medicaid, you apply for government subsidies through NY State of Health (Obamacare marketplace.) If you make too much for medicaid but still pretty low, then you get your obamacare completely subsidized. There are a few things that have small copays but you're basically paying nothing. Then if you make a little more, you pay a small premium, there are different tiers, going up until full price... similar to what you were describing in NJ but just not called medicaid! So what you're saying is that if someone in NJ talks about being on medicaid, that doesn't mean the same thing as in NY where you need to make rock bottom income and then don't pay anything!

How do I know all the different tiers of NY Obamacare? Because I started out on medicaid and graduated out of it. Because it's not true that it's "only a matter of time until most people start being dishonest." Maybe it's only a matter of time until people start being panicky about how they will make it through the transition, but that's not at all the same thing.

I do have to say the Obamacare subsidy system definitely makes it easier for that transition to happen successfully. Before it, I was in a real bind - I needed more income, but if I were to take on a few more hours a week of work then I would end up with LESS income after expenses. Obamacare helped me bridge that gap by being able to work more, earn more, and pay a manageable amount for health care. There may have been some big flaws with the system but I don't know if this piece is getting the acknowledgement it deserves. I think the worst thing for a national economy is to create disincentives for people to work and achieve. Having to pay a fortune for health care the second you start making any meaningful income is a disincentive to work.

SixOfWands

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:25 am

amother wrote:

I think its wrong for people to send their kids to free public school if they can afford private school. They should work 2 jobs before taking advantage of free schooling. Why does the government offer schooling for free anyway? Only for those who can't afford it right? Able bodied parents shouldn't be allowed to send their kids to public school unless they can prove they are trying their best to afford private school.

Twisted Evil

How is public school any different from any other government program?

Because everyone in the United States is entitled to a free and appropriate public education.

The only ones who are entitled to government largesse in the form of food stamps, free or low cost medical assistance, rent assistance, etc. are those whose incomes are deemed low.

As a society, we are struggling to help those who NEED help. In that case, it is wrong to provide funding to those who choose not to work, as opposed to those who cannot work, or whose work still places them below the poverty line.

amother

Wheat

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:29 am

amother wrote:

In NJ at $80K for a family of 7 you are eligible for a lot. CHS will help still pay for daycare and day camp (now you don't even have to work during the summer to get subsidized day camp, as long as you work 30 hrs \week most of the year you are covered all year).
You can still bring in a nice salary (I know my SILs do whose husbands are in kollel make a living) they take all the benefits they are given - why not - they are encouraged to take it by government agencies? (I am not on benefits. ).

Its almost like the government is looking to give away money. I know a few people who got Sandy mortgages. I forget the terms but I think they got 25K toward a down payment and they have to live in the house a minimum number of years. They lived in basement apts and were not affected at all. Of course people do it - until there is reform things will not change.

amother

Blue

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 10:42 am

MagentaYenta wrote:

Graduate students are often given tuition remission and stipends. Grad students who are organized under a collective bargaining contract may receive almost living wage salaries. Tuition remission, stipends and GTA salaries are typically counted as income for the purpose of qualifying for benefits and can kept student from receiving benefits such as SNAP or TANF if they have children. This is not true for all states, mileage may vary.

My grad program didn't give me any income and I had huge student loans. I didn't qualify as being a full time student doesn't cut it.
Mostly only STEM give the benefits you describe but not one of a number of other programs that lead to real careers (not talking about a masters in middle age English). There were no GTAs at my school either.

33055

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:16 am

amother wrote:

Where in heavens name did you get this idea from? You are WRONG

No you are WRONG.

The vast majority of frum Jews on programs are not using it to learn Torah. Many of them do learn Torah part-time; they use the programs to pay for necessities. And use the cash jobs for luxuries.

LOL come to Monsey and see the ladies using benefits cards at the grocery then heading to the adjacent clothing stores and buying $60 trousers for their babies. This would be a great week to watch this happening.

Do you really believe that 93% of the chassidim in certain communities are learning? Do you ever travel through these communities and see the luxury on display? Do you see the price in the stores and how crowded they are with shoppers? Try driving in the streets during the day. You can watch the commerce.

amother

Blonde

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 11:44 am

Squishy wrote:

You mentioned you live in a country where "one third of all people are on Medicaid!"
I don't know where that is and what you see but I think it is a non-true stereotype to spread that to the vast majority of frum Jews on programs. I am not familiar with the chassidim in Monsey that you are referencing, but I can tell you that in Lakewood and Brooklyn, this is totally not true. There may be some people who do that, but NOT the "majority of frum jews"

amother

Amethyst

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 1:11 pm

amother wrote:

The issue is that planning to live off of government assistance programs is that you are essential deciding to live off of tzedaka. And this is not a Jewish ideal.

If one has no choice and requires tzedaka there is no shame in that, but to choose to live off other's tzedaka when you could be supporting yourself is contradictory to a torah lifestyle.

I disagree with equating gov't aide with tzedaka.

When I give tzedaka, I am giving in willingly and gladly to help others.

When I pay my taxes, I do so grudgingly to avoid jail.

Which is not to say that I don't think people should pay any taxes. Nor do I think that there aren't people very deserving of gov't aide.

But knowing that able-bodied people chose not to work, driving up the cost of taxes for others who have no say in the matter -- well, I think it's seriously wrong.

amother

Honeydew

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:25 pm

amother wrote:

My husband has a genius level IQ . He took the exam to get a census job in 2010 and got a perfect score.
The census office offered him a job but then called him and told him not to take it because he will lose benefits..

amother

Plum

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:31 pm

amother wrote:

How did a potential employer (even a government employer) know that your family received government benefits? Something seems off here.

In any case, the job you're talking about was a part-time, short-term position. Surely a man with a genius IQ could do a lot better than that. I'm certain that he must be working in a job commensurate with his genius by now, and that you're long off of benefits.

MagentaYenta

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:37 pm

amother wrote:

Public research university, that also has a thriving liberal arts program, with funded grad positions. The majority of funding is private parties and well managed foundation money, some is corporate.

marina

Mon, Apr 03 2017, 2:44 pm

amother wrote:

Someone who sees value in the life choice of getting a degree, becoming a doctor, or other advanced schooling will usually not have an issue if this causes the student to take advantage of government assistance.

So too, someone who sees value in young men dedicating their lives to full-time Torah study will not have an issue if that causes the student to take government assistance.

government assistance for medical students, for example, should be standard. It is a fantastic investment because when more people get better jobs, those people will pay more taxes.

And investing in kollel students doesn't have that same effect. It's not an investment at all. That's the difference.