Yom Ha'atzma'ut & Zikaron - one POV

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:32 am

saw50st8 wrote:

If it's a special tefillah for the Soldiers, why would the tefillah include all Jews? Not all Jews are serving in the army to protect Israel. That's not a dig at Charedim, American, Canadian, South African, European Jews, many women, older people etc aren't in the army protecting the Jewish people. So either it's a catch-all or it's special for the soldiers?

It's a prayer for every Jew.
We all need protection.
Rationally, why does that not sit well with you? (I mean this is a curious, not snarky, way)

There are policemen and firemen and security gurads who risk their lives for us daily, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat tov.
There are doctors who save lives every day, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat tov.
There are teachers who shape lives every day, but we don't say a special prayer for them out of hakarat hatov.
There are volunteers and parents and millions of people who should get a special prayer and are included in this prayer.

As an aside, why don't we have a special prayer for the policemen and firemen and security guards who guard our schools and shuls even in diaspora? Because it's their job?
I'd like to point out that the IDF has mandatory conscription, which means that many of our fine soldiers would have skipped it in favor of college or travelling or even working. Most soldiers are in the army because they don't have a choice and because what you did in the army will affect every avenue of your social/professional life in Israel. Not out of idealism, unfortunately.

Hashem should protect us all and help us understand the "other side" and allow us to look past ideologies and differences and to remain nice in our interaction with others...

Iymnok

Mon, May 01 2017, 10:40 am

saw50st8 wrote:

Can you clarify the "they" were here first comment? AFAIK, people over the age of 69 are no longer drafted.

The chareidim that were here before '48. That includes Brisk, toldos Aharon, members of the Eida hachareidis, members of the old yishuv. With a clear history of Yerushalayim you can get a clearer idea of how many wars the "chareidim" had to fight. Against other Jews who's ideologies were Zionism and secularism. I wrote they since I am not part of any of those communities.
It's a clear history and their views make sense. I just really don't feel like typing them up.
The information is available.

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 11:44 am

treestump wrote:

Interesting to see your perspective. Thanks for sharing.

From my perspective, chareidi people have a lot of power in the government. Which bothers me a lot because I feel like a lot of freedoms are being restricted and that Israel is a theocracy with a touch of democracy. Separation of church and state is essential in any democracy, and I really hope Israel never turns into a Jewish Iran.

"In fact, for some chareidim this government is even worse than being under non-Jewish rule precisely because it is Jews sanctioning chillul Shabbos, intermarriage, questionable conversions... etc."

Idk, I keep hearing complaints from secular and non Jewish people how they can't buy anything on Shabbos, there are no buses running.... Stores which were open got heavily fined. The government actually made chilul shabbos illegal.
Intermarriage - again, there are no civil ceremonies accepted in Israel... you need a rabbi or minster to conduct your ceremony. So the government definitely does not sanction intermarriage. And if they make it illegal, whatever democracy is left would be destroyed. Questionable conversions- I don't get this either. The rabbinut in Israel controls this, and they have insane measures re conversions, even rejecting Orthodox conversion. So where exactly are they sanctioning questionable conversions?

Basically, I don't understand the victim mentality since chareidi people have so much strength and representation in the government. If you can clarify, I'd appreciate that.

I actually feel bad for all the people who cannot live their as freely as they would want because of all these "rules" which are seemingly put in place by the chareidim. But I don't believe in the victim mentality because I don't oppose opening store on Shabbos and selling non-kosher meat and intermarriages (or even kiddushin without taharas mishpacha) because I think everyone should do as I do, but because we are living in THE holy land and should be respectful of that. If I would enter someone else's home, it would be rude not to follow their rules, and I think G-d deserves no less respect than what I would give to my neighbor. What G-d really expects from us is a debate that we don't need to get into here, but regardless of who is right, a chareidi believes that Hashem's rules are the halachot (as followed by chareidi Judaism) and that they should be followed in his own house. This is not about coercion per se, but about being respectful. Now a secular person may disagree that this is what Hashem expects of him, but you can imagine why a chareidi would want the rule of the land to follow Halacha as he sees it. It's not an us vs. them thing, but a G-d thing.

As an aside, questionable conversion are sanctioned all the time in the IDF. I have worked with several such people who have asserted that the only reason they went the conversion is because they didn't want their future children to be stigmatized by being a non-Jew in Israel. They have no interest in Hashem and Judaism aside from the social perks and certainly no intention of keeping mitzvot.

Dandelion1

Mon, May 01 2017, 11:51 am

I can certainly understand the conflicts between the chareidi lifestyle and army service. I can see how, unless there were special units or whatever, this lifestyle would be extremely compromised.

What I don't understand, and maybe someone could explain this, is the utter hatred and complete lack of gratitude that seems to be indoctrinated and demonstrated toward those that ARE defending the country and keeping it safe for all types of Jews to exist in. Why not quietly think "well, I'm glad it's not me, but thanks soldiers!" or just ignore them completely or whatever?

amother

Seashell

Mon, May 01 2017, 11:53 am

aleph wrote:

Because there is a lot of past history and fighting between the groups that we americans don't understand?

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 11:54 am

water_bear88 wrote:

What bothers me most at the moment about the Charedim staying out of the army is the fact that that they don't care to do anything about the secularization the army is undergoing. The Charedi political parties have enough power to insist the Sar Habitachon be religious. But because they prefer to stay out of the army than help fight to keep it religious-friendly, we have Lieberman as Sar Habitachon and I now have to worry about my sons being forced to serve in mixed-gender units.

I hear how that might be frustrating, but chareidim cant fight ALL the fights.
Imagine if I told you I don't want to go into business with you, but continually try to force you to conduct your business how I want it done. It would be a real chutzpah.
If we don't want to be in the army, we can't really have a (public) opinion on how it should be run differently.

saw50st8

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:10 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

We say special tefilos all the time for people who are in more dangerous situations. People daven for women giving birth (a sakana). People daven for those who are sick. Soldiers are more at risk every day than a regular person.

Should we be davening for the police and fire fighters? Probably, but soldiers are automatic targets every day in Israel. I think it's a little ludicrous to compare teachers or volunteers to soldiers.

The IDF does not need the prayers of the charedim. They have the prayers of the other Jews protecting them. But please don't pretend that your general prayers cover the IDF because they "are Jews too!" It's just a shame that Charedim (and not all, I recognize that) use tefillah to divide instead of unite.

water_bear88

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:14 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

Except that you could if you had a more open position strongly encouraging boys who aren't learning seriously to enlist. Let's say 10% can't handle sitting and learning all day- ADHD or whatever other reason. If the Charedi population could point to them and say, look! We think everyone should do what they're best able to for the Jewish people, and the 10% of our boys who are best suited to serve in the army all enlist! I would not then question their having political opinions about what the army should or shouldn't do.

treestump

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:17 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

So you believe that your personal beliefs should be mandatorily followed by every single person living in Israel.

You don't respect other religious people's halachic perspectives as valid, but demand respect for your beliefs and think that means everyone following what you personally believe and giving up their liberties?

Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

saw50st8

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:19 pm

Iymnok wrote:

The current draft eligible Charedim are descendants of those who were here when the state of Israel was founded. That's drastically different. Would they like to subscribe to all the laws that were applicable in pre-1948? British law? Ottoman Law before that?

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:45 pm

treestump wrote:

Actually, I never used "I" in the post.
I only posted the POV the chareidi camp has.
I never said I don't accept other halachic opinions, I actually understand them just fine (for the most part) but connect best with the chareidi viewpoint.
This is a discussion to allow people to understand the "other" POV in a calm way.

Also, why is religious coercion awful, but secular coercion is A-Okay?
It's not okay for me to want you to live your life the way I believe is best, but it's okay for you to force me to live how you believe is best?
What the actual ideology is, is secondary. Can we please recognize how silly this concept is?

I am not trying to put anyone down or get anyone to change over to my POV. I am just trying to explain so that someone who is not chareidi can get an idea of what the chareidi viewpoint is - without all the media-induced vitriol.

amother

Wine

Mon, May 01 2017, 12:56 pm

sequoia wrote:

Intermarriage? Ok, some facts:

There's no civil marriage in Israel.

All marriages are under the auspice of whatever religious authority.

That means that not only are a Jew and non-Jew unable legally to marry, two atheist non-Jews are unable to marry either!!!

Israel is THE ONLY Western country that doesn't have civil marriage.

All to prevent intermarriage.

I suppose they don't shoot or behead those who fly to Cyprus to get married. Yes, that's true.

Continuing ... not only is it illegal for anyone (Jew, Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Baha'I, Taoist or anyone else) to marry other than in a religious ceremony, it is a criminal offense for Jews in Israel to marry in weddings performed outside the state’s religious authority, and doing so can result in a jail sentence of up to two years.

AND marriages can only be performed under Orthodox rules.

What of those people who cannot prove that they are Jewish to the satisfaction of the Charedi Rabbinate? Tough luck to them.

cheeseaddict

Mon, May 01 2017, 1:10 pm

water_bear88 wrote:

Except that we would be literally throwing these kids to the wolves on the chance that when we have to take a public stance (because now we have our boys in there), our opinion may or may not be taken into account.
The DL camp has a right to an opinion as your boys are not only in the IDF, but the elite. And yet your opinion is not taken into account too often. In fact, they are doing their best to make sure religious soldiers cannot enter officer's courses or move up in the army. Why would they treat chareidim any differently?

Aside from this, such a move would also open the door to have everyone enlist while the army makes no promises (or even if it does) about what will happen once they do Think about all the promises to the chareidi units, to Gush Katif, to every settlement that was "voluntarily" dismantled. I give you an inch and you take a mile mentality. Which, BTW, is the real reason why there are such extremes on both sides. It's because no one will budge an inch because the other side will take full advantage of it and use it as a gateway to bigger things.