Yom Ha'atzma'ut & Zikaron - one POV

shabbatiscoming

Mon, May 01 2017, 6:28 pm

cheeseaddict wrote:

As for the actual day - to be really honest, most chareidim probably don't appreciate it as they should because most of them have not lost family members in the army. I'll bet most of those who have respect the siren.

OK, OP, I completely disagree with your entire OP, but I just wanted to touch on two points here.
You said that most chredim have not lost anyone in the army. So two things here. First, today is not just about people that have died from army things. It is also for terrorist attacks and any other way people have lost their lives during Israel's 69 years. So, to your thought process here, because I have not lost family in the army, I wont have that much respect for the day? Does that make any sense? Do you think that only secular or dati leumi people have lost family members? That is making great big assumptions.

amother

Babyblue

Mon, May 01 2017, 9:08 pm

cheeseaddict- I am confused about where you are getting all of your information from about army service/ hesder religious units. My son , a hesder lone soldier, who just finished his army service and was in an artillery unit- never had to worry about kashrut, was given time to daven (except of course in times of emergencies) and at times when there were not enough for a minyan chiloni officers helped to make a minyan. Is this out of the ordinary- are you saying my son was lucky- I hope this is how it is for everyone, even though the army itself is not religious there is great respect for those who are. Why would they give each Jewish soldier a tanach at their swearing in? Why at every ceremony I went to did the commanding officers who were chilonim quote the tanach as well as other commentaries if there was not the understanding of who we are and the miracles that have taken place.
Why would my son's unit commander take his unit to a town nearby that was having a hachnassat sefer torah to help the town celebrate. Although my son was hesder his unit was not all religious. Why would they send my son and a few of his "mates" to the cemetery on the yartzeit of a fallen soldier to make sure there was a minyan?

I also know a number of hesder boys who have become officers- so I am not sure why you say the army is not allowing this.

What we need is tefilolot to protect our soldiers from ourselves! I have written before about how my son who was in Guelah in uniform shopping for a sefer had to be escorted out by the police because a mob had formed, blocks long(thankfully the owner of the bookstore took him to a back room until the police arrived and had to leave through a back door.) Why did I feel my son was safer doing security by an arab town on Yom Haatzmauat where the residents of the town wished him chag smaeach than being with his own "bretheren" looking for a sefer!

moonstone

Tue, May 02 2017, 12:50 am

cheeseaddict wrote:

You are inferring something that just isn't there.
Where did I say or even hint at disdain?
My father and uncles were all in the army. Many of my cousins are in the army (some as secular Israelis, many in hesder and two in a chareidi unit).
I am not twisting myself in a knot NOT to say something, just not adding to what already exists. Why is that such a big deal?

You're refusing to say a prayer. A prayer. No one is asking you do something against halacha, or bow down to anyone, etc. It's a prayer to G-d, the same G-d we supposedly all pray to. But because you don't like the origin, it's automatically tossed aside. This insistence on being different and separate from the rest of us no matter who it offends seems so "dafka" and nasty.

Question: what if your son wanted to join the army?

moonstone

Tue, May 02 2017, 12:54 am

shabbatiscoming wrote:

This is exactly what I thought when I read cheese addicts post.

heidi

Tue, May 02 2017, 1:23 am

Ok, haven't been on in awhile (Yom Haatzmaut celebrations!!)-- but just wanted to add two things. First of all, the whole point is to show respect during the siren- whether you are personally affected by losing someone or not- unfortunately too many are, and being quiet really doesn't seem too much to ask.
Secondly, for all those defending the army: Unfortunately, a lot of what people are saying is true. The Israeli army is really no place for a frum boy. They are exposed to cultures and temptations-- there is definitely not a minyan or a sefer Torah every single place they go and the general atmosphere is not a Torah one.
HOWEVER-- they have no choice. It is a sacrifice that our boys (and their families) make bcz. otherwise we will be literally run into the sea.
Our boys sacrifice chagim and shabbatot in a Torah atmosphere. They sacrifice family vacations. They sacrifice getting to daven with a minyan on a daily basis. They sacrifice time and energy to learn Torah. They sacrifice the innocence that many many of them come in with after having grown up in frum homes, neighborhoods, schools and camps.
They do it for all of you.
Including charedim who for some reason think that their boy's Torah and innocence is more holy than my son's. Who think that their son's blood is more precious than my son's. Who think that G-d loves their son's observance of miztvot more than He loves my son's.
In a perfect world, the army would be a place of torah. But we live in a reality very very far from perfect, and so we have to do what we need to do. Even at the expense of things and people we hold very very dear.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 02 2017, 1:44 am

heidi wrote:

My sons served in hesder units, and I can tell you that not only were they able to daven and learn, they had the opportunity to show other soldiers the beauty of religious life. There are soldiers who have never eaten kosher before coming to the army. They've never seen a shabbos meal with zemiros and divrei Torah. And they've never spent time with religious kids their age. The exposure is life changing.

Of course the army isn't a beis medrash. But so what? Moshe Rabbenu led Jews into battle
Yehoshua led Jews into battle. It's part of life.

I agree with you, Heidi, that our boys make incredible sacrifices and the lack of gratitude is appalling.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 02 2017, 1:51 am

heidi wrote:

This could not be further from the truth. My son's blood is not more precious than yours. And it is very, very painful to see that you think that this is the Charedi opinion. As a Charedi I respect every Jew. And I appreciate and am "makir tov" to every soldier in the IDF. What you are writing is YOUR interpretation and I'm sorry you think this. It saddens me greatly that the Torah learning my son and others do is not valued enough and respected by others. Your son is not doing a more important job than mine. And mine isn't doing a more important job than yours. Everyone is doing their job and contributing to the klal. And as long as there isn't mutual respect there isn't unity. And that is tragic.

Sadly, I have to be anonymous because this issue is too loaded and this conversation is impossible to have when people say things like this.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 02 2017, 1:53 am

amother wrote:

Except that one job is life threatening and one isn't.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:01 am

Correct. One is life threatening and one isn't. So? Just because your son is doing what he believes is the right thing to do (and probably with great idealism), and following your rabbonim, why does that make his blood "less precious" than my son who is doing what he believes in and what our rabbonim instruct him to do? Oh, it sounds "unfair" to you? So don't do it! Your son may also sit and learn instead of serving, because learning has intrinsic value to Am Yisrael. Wait. You believe that it is imperative to serve and not learn instead? So serve and do it proudly. Don't denigrate other Jews who may be just as idealistic as you and your son but see things differently.
It's wrong, wrong, wrong to pull the "Your son's blood is more precious than mine" card. You don't know what other people are thinking and what motivates them. It all boils down to different people ascribing different levels of importance to Torah learning.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:14 am

amother wrote:

If you are being honest, then I do know what you are thinking. And what you are thinking is that the physical defense of the Jewish people isn't your responsibility. You're happy to let someone else do the heavy lifting.

If the charedi community really thinks that kollel learning is necessary for the defense of the country, how do explain taking off for bein hazmanim? What do you think would happen if the army took off ten weeks a year? The two are not comparable.

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:20 am

amother wrote:

Wrong. This has nothing to do with the "heavy lifting". If our spiritual leader would say to join the army my sons would be the first to go. As would be other learners. I am thinking alot of things but not that we will leave the "heavy lifting" to someone else. Learning is a different kind of heavy lifting. And if anyone thinks it's an easy thing to do, think again. But the point is that Torah learning is sustaining our nation. Full stop. Am Yisrael must do hishtadlus. That includes some people fighting and some people learning. Both are equally important.
But, if you ladies insist that you know where it's all coming from (cowardice, laziness, our blood being redder etc.) the conversation is pointless. Because you are brave and idealistic and we are a bunch of shiftless freeloaders. This may not be true but it sure sounds this way from the posts I'm reading.

Bein Hazmanim is very important because without it learners would burn out. People who serve in the armed forces also have furloughs. People cannot maintain their intensity without breaks. Noone is comparing learning and serving. I just said that both are equally important (EQUALLY) to sustain the Jewish nation.

ora_43

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:31 am

amother wrote:

Don't denigrate other Jews who may be just as idealistic as you and your son but see things differently.
It's wrong, wrong, wrong to pull the "Your son's blood is more precious than mine" card. You don't know what other people are thinking and what motivates them. It all boils down to different people ascribing different levels of importance to Torah learning.

Look, I agree that people shouldn't ascribe evil motives to the hareidi public.

But you must realize that just because it's about religious beliefs, doesn't make it not unfair. If tomorrow 90% of Muslim citizens of Israel all decided they weren't going to pay taxes because Islam is against paying taxes to a non-Muslim country, would you be like "Normally I wouldn't like having my taxes increased by 20% to cover services for someone else just because they don't feel like paying, but since it's their religion..."

(that's hypothetical, obviously, and not meant as a smear against Muslim Israelis)

It's your religious belief and it's unfair. No contradiction.

heidi

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:46 am

amother wrote:

I usually don't answer people too cowardly to write in their own screen name, but. The saddest part of your pathetic outlook is that you think your son's Torah is more important than my son's. My son left after two years of learning in yeshiva gevoha bcz. he had to now do his other hishtadlut which is protecting and serving his country. Why doesn't your son have the same achrayut?

amother

Ruby

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:50 am

heidi wrote:

Leaving yeshiva is achrayut?????? Going against what our spiritual leaders tell us is a lack of achrayut?

You are calling my outlook "pathetic". That was duly noted. My son't learning is NOT more important than yours. Yours can continue to learn as well, should he choose to. He made a different choice and that is ok. Kol Hakavod to him for his idealism. The difference between us is that I respect your son for his choice and you have nothing but disdain for mine for following his ideals and having emunat chachamim.

heidi

Tue, May 02 2017, 2:52 am

amother wrote:

Yup!