"Everybody's faking"

amother

Emerald

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 10:50 am

cookiecutter wrote:

This thread suffers from the a significant misperception, that anyone who doesn't believe in Hashem or in Torah misinai, and yet stays in the community, is faking. That is completely untrue - which is perhaps why the concept of orthopraxy is so threatening to believers.

You can appreciate and engage in the spirituality of yidishkeit without believing anything. God is a theoretical concept, but spirituality is an experience. People who were raised frum have the same nostalgia around simchos and yamim tovim regardless of whether they believe in God. They have the same benefit of a strong, supportive community, the same intellectual stimulation from learning, the same acquired taste of the food. The dirty little secret is that even the people who are not faking it are just here for the kugel. So am I faking? No, I'm not faking. I'm not pretending to daven or raise considerate children or care about this weeks parsha. I am davening, I am trying hard to raise content, well-adjusted children who understand that there are causes bigger than themselves, and I am really interested in the parsha. I just don't pretend to have the reasons you do.

I agree with this.

What happens though is that people can get very upset when you you look like them, act like them, talk like them, use community resources.... but don't believe like them. For many people accepting Torah Misianai (written and oral) is critical to be a member of the community.

I think the word fake has an implication of trickery. Only as it was used in the article - the people interviewed are continuing to live outwardly as chassidic jews to trick everyone around them that they are believers because the consequences of not believing, and not 'living the lifestyle' would be excommunication. It seemed that the people interviewed had come to the conclusion that (1) there is no G-d therefore (2) there is no reason for me to do anything in the Torah.

Most people that I know who identify with orthopraxy would say - my beliefs lie somewhere outside of orthodox belief (which I continue to maintain is acceptance of Rambam's 13) but live the orthodox lifestyle because it feels right/ works for me / isn't contradictory with my belief set. One can still accept upon themselves most halacha without orthodox belief.

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 10:53 am

amother wrote:

So here is the big question: What is bad? What is good?

In Arayan eyes, wiping out "inferior" people was good for the benefit of society.

In pagan eyes, child sacrifice is good.

In the Congo, killing women and children from inferior tribes is praiseworthy.

Good and bad are both subjective to the situation at hand and the person doing the deciding.

UNLESS, of course, there was a specific definition of good and bad built into the creation of the world, by of course, a Creator.

Only with a G-d can there be good and bad. Without one, everyone is able to decide for themselves what the definition of good and bad are.

Very well articulated.

This is why it's impossible to evaluate the "morality" or "values" of an American atheist, as such a person is necessarily influenced by America's Judeo Christian values. More telling is to look at places, or times, that were untouched by said influence.

amother

Rose

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:02 am

In fact, atheist Hitler blamed specifically the Jews for introducing morality to the world.

In a speech he gave to Nuremburg youth, he said these words, which is now posted in Aushwitz:

"I freed Germany from the stupid and degrading fallacies of conscience, morality...We will train young people before whom the whole world will tremble. I want young people capable of violence, imperious, relentless, cruel."

It is only through a Divine moral code that good exists.

SixOfWands

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:04 am

amother wrote:

This mindset was not uncommon at all at the time, unfortunately. Yeshiva educations were not available, life was hard, being a frum Jew was hard, and those who did stay frum, associated the religion with hardship and pain.

I'd predict that this relative's children did not stay frum?

To the best of my knowledge, all of his children and grandchildren were frum. And all but one of his great-grandchildren (and her 2 kids).

amother

Crimson

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 11:12 am

SixOfWands wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, all of his children and grandchildren were frum. And all but one of his great-grandchildren (and her 2 kids).

That's beautiful.

I think that in general, children are influenced by their parents' *feelings* toward religion as much as beliefs, or even more. Whether feelings of warmth or hostility; reverence or disregard.

Which I think is kind of what Cookiecutter was saying.

Whether the children choose to follow the parents' path or reject it, they are still defining themselves in relation to it.

imasoftov

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:05 pm

I propose that we start a new organization that issues hechshers to people. To get one, you'll have to take a lie detector test (note that I reserve the right to question the accuracy of lie detector tests in a later thread) twice ever seven years and be asked if they believe in all 13 ikkarim (the ani maamin version in the siddur, any intellectual who insists on believing the Rambam's actual words in his Perush Hamishnayot need not apply, even more so if they insist on reading it in the original Judeo-Arabic), a few more which Rambam might himself considered heretical, as well as every nation, religion, and philosophy in the world aside from ours being evil and barbaric. This hechsher will be necessary in order to get kugel, chulent, and other Jewish foods, whether at a kiddush, a Shabbat meal, or a take-out store. People actively undergoing kiruv will get an easier test but have to take it more often, and they won't be able to buy take-out. There's probably no way we can stop people who just want to enjoy traditional foods on their own from making it themselves, but it won't taste as good.

Eventually competing hechsherim with contradictory standards will spring up, as well as accusations that some people are managing to defeat the lie detectors. It will all come crashing down when people learn that no one ever tested the testers. But that will take about 20 years.

Last edited by imasoftov on Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total

amother

Emerald

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:12 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I propose that we start a new organization that issues hechshers to people. To get one, you'll have to take a lie detector test (note that I reserve the right to question the accuracy of lie detector tests in a later thread) twice ever seven years and be asked if they believe in all 13 ikkarim (the ani maamin version in the siddur, any intellectual who insists on believing the Rambam's actual words in his Perush Hamishnayot need not apply, even more so if they insist on reading it in the original Judeo-Arabic), a few more which Rambam might himself considered heretical, as well as every nation, religion, and philosophy in the world aside from ours being evil and barbaric. This hechsher will be necessary in order to get kugel, chulent, and other Jewish foods, whether at a kiddush, a Shabbat meal, or a take-out store. People actively undergoing kiruv will get an easier test but have to take it more often, and they won't be able to buy take-out. There's probably no way we can stop people who just want to enjoy traditional foods on their own from making it themselves, but it won't taste as good.

Eventually competing hechsherim with contradictory standards will spring up, as well as accusations that some people are managing to defeat the lie detectors. It will all come crashing down when people learned that no one ever tested the testers. But that will take about 20 years.

I really appreciated this. Thank-you.

treestump

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:18 pm

imasoftov wrote:

I propose that we start a new organization that issues hechshers to people. To get one, you'll have to take a lie detector test (note that I reserve the right to question the accuracy of lie detector tests in a later thread) twice ever seven years and be asked if they believe in all 13 ikkarim (the ani maamin version in the siddur, any intellectual who insists on believing the Rambam's actual words in his Perush Hamishnayot need not apply, even more so if they insist on reading it in the original Judeo-Arabic), a few more which Rambam might himself considered heretical, as well as every nation, religion, and philosophy in the world aside from ours being evil and barbaric. This hechsher will be necessary in order to get kugel, chulent, and other Jewish foods, whether at a kiddush, a Shabbat meal, or a take-out store. People actively undergoing kiruv will get an easier test but have to take it more often, and they won't be able to buy take-out. There's probably no way we can stop people who just want to enjoy traditional foods on their own from making it themselves, but it won't taste as good.

Eventually competing hechsherim with contradictory standards will spring up, as well as accusations that some people are managing to defeat the lie detectors. It will all come crashing down when people learned that no one ever tested the testers. But that will take about 20 years.

This is actually the most sensible response and outcome to this convoluted thread.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:18 pm

amother wrote:

That is what religion would have you believe. But I disagree. I don't know any pagans personally.
But the other day I watched a frum woman stand next to a black child who was running into the street and doing nothing. After listening to this womans racist comments for an hour. I think this kind of hate needs to be taught.
I don't think she is a bad person. I think she truly believes non jews are akin to animals. I think without religion she would have tried to save that child. And that makes me sad.
There are narcissists and psychopaths everywhere religious or not. Examples are stalin or hitler.
But I do believe most people have a moral compass that tells them to be kind to all human beings especially children. Unless religion teaches them not to.

Do you know the story of Rabbi Eliezer Silver and, I've heard, Simon Weisenthal? Rabbi Silver was in a DP camp and invited him to put on tefillin. He said, after what he saw he'd never put them on again. What he saw: a prisoner who had a pair of tefillin and let other people put them on, but charged them their daily bread.
Rabbi Silver said, You're looking at this person who did something terrible. Why not look at all the people who lined up to put on tefillin?

I would like to think most people have such a moral compass. Rabbi Tatz even said something along these lines, you can probably hear it on the Ohr Somayach website or Torahanytime; he said on the summer Ohr Somayach tour with Rabbi Gottleib and Rabbi Breitowitz. We do have strong moral inclinations and he posited that we need religion to guide us to implement them well.

OTOH, there is yetzer lev ha'adam ra minurav. Without good chinuch, as much of a moral compass as people have, some bad tendencies can run amok.

amother

Rose

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:23 pm

imasoftov wrote:

...as well as every nation, religion, and philosophy in the world aside from ours being evil and barbaric...

That was in no way, shape, or form implied.

The only thing said was that Judaism defines what is good and bad according to the rules created into the world. Those who do not believe in this Divinely-given definition of good and bad are then left to their own devices to determine what is good and what is bad.

Some people, cultures, nations will choose to do good, though it is only made through their own determinations, not because it is inherently good as good as commanded by Hashem. (Unless they are bnei Noach.)

I think that was quite clearly explained. However, your sarcastic posting was an attempt to make intellectualism appear close-minded through wrongful interpretation.

And of course, it is not man's place to probe the hearts of others, determining if one is "kosher" or not, but if a person is open about their lack of belief in Hashem, that person has just separated himself from the foundations of Klal Yisroel.

Anybody who believes that practice without belief is authentic Judaism is kosher is tragically mistaken. There is no Judaism without Hashem in the picture. It's just play acting.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:34 pm

amother wrote:

PinkFridge, I agree with you completely. The average Yid can have very severe slumps at times and be unmotivated, unconnected.

An atheist is not that category though.

An atheist has actively decalare: There is no G-d.

This is very different from a simply, struggling human being.

True. And an atheist who decides not to break his/her family up and go through the motions with love and respect for family and no resentment is a madreiga not to be belittled. (And who knows, it might nurture a shoresh for a later return.) I just want to clarify that I think Orthopraxy is one more tragic byproduct of this long galus but that I don't consider all Orthopracts hypocritical and subversive and dangerous to the rest of us. It's much more nuanced than that.

PinkFridge

Thu, Jun 15 2017, 12:44 pm

amother wrote:

Anybody who believes that practice without belief is authentic Judaism is kosher is tragically mistaken. There is no Judaism without Hashem in the picture. It's just play acting.

I very much want to like your post but I want to iterate: Let's not minimize the potential of the play acting. Better that someone play act if s/he can live a normal life and not poison her/his loved ones than decide to just chuck it all.