Would you be offended if you were asked to be Kvatter?

zaq

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 6:29 am

Threads like this make me sick. Asking someone to be kvatter/in is an honor. Getting hung up on segulos and then extrapolating from that to insensitivity and intrusiveness at best and evil intent at worst on the part of the person who asked is perverting the whole thing. You can't or don't want to perform, decline politely, thank them for the honor, and go on with your life. It's not all about you, people. Sheesh.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 7:22 am

amother wrote:

No. and periwinkle, u sound very strange- it's not a thing exclusive to infertile couples, it's just a segula for good children. They were not saying u can't have kids, they were just giving u a great opportunity to pray for great children.

Thanks for pointing JUST me out, but other people also said they don't want to because of the segula and drawing attention to their childlessness so whats your problem??

amother

Yellow

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 7:30 am

Op here.
We don't know any close relatives or friends who would like to be kvatter for the segulah of children.
However my parents have two neighbors who don't yet have children and I was thinking of asking them. One of them is an acquaintance of mine but we barely talk and barely know eAch other; the other neighbor I don't know at all. Now my question is, should I ask one of these couples, or should I just give Kvatter to any couple attending the bris who does not particularly need the segulah of children?

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 7:57 am

amother wrote:

I think you should skip it. You barely know them.

I give kvatter to my grandparents. Its an honor.

amother

Mistyrose

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 8:02 am

amother wrote:

Asking people you barely know just draws attention to the fact that they don't have kids. Give the honor to someone who's close to you.

watergirl

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 8:08 am

amother wrote:

If you ask these people who you dont even know, they would be well within their rights to tell you to keep your mind out of their uterus. In this situation, I could a while understand why they would be offended. You don't even know them! It is very clear that you mean well and have only the best intentions. But in this case, skip it.

And I also agree with Zaq. Kvater as a nod to infertility is only a "thing" where its a "thing". Until I gave birth to my first son, I had never heard of this before! If people are looking at the stomach the person bestowed with this honor, that's just nauseating and inappropriate to the max. People really need to learn to mind their own business.

Having said that, when we had our first boy, a couple who we were close with asked us if they could have the honor. We were actually planning on giving it to grandparents, aunts, uncles, people who had flown in, as was the custom in our shul. As we were close with this couple, we knew about their infertility and she also dipped in the mikvah after me when I entered my 9th month. They are very private so we gave them the baby, and they passed it to my husband and I from the coat room into the hallway. Then they went in to the shul and we proceeded with the processional as planned. She did have a baby about eight months after, so she credits the mikvah segula.

With our second bris, a couple also came who we only knew peripherally, and asked for kvater. We had already asked someone, so we changed everything for this couple because they had been married a few years already and it had gotten to the point of desperation and were willing to try anything. Five years later, they had a beautiful baby.

So yeah, its only a thing where its a thing.

amother

Coral

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 8:40 am

amother wrote:

I was asked as I was walking into shul for the bris by a well meaning family member. I was 5 months married and as happy to take the roll, but was a nida. I ended up passing to my mother who passed to my father who passed to my husband Smile

Sooo....9 months later I had a baby. and 2.5 months after that my mother had a baby! LOL

I guess because I was so newly married and trying I appreciated the offer but I could understand the awkwardness that might occur.

When my son was born I offered kvatter to a cousin of mine and they had a baby 9 months later. Smile

So to answer the question about whether there is a source for this, I don't know of one, but I believe in it.

Please....
I was kvatter four times and never once had a baby 9 months later. But glad you so happily believe in the powers of humiliating oneself in front of a crowd of people. (If you ask me, that would be the only reason why kvatter is a zchus- don't they say busha michaperes?)

amother

Red

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 8:46 am

personally I wouldn't give it to someone I barely know. I would feel uncomfortable if someone offered it to us in that situation.

Good friends of ours recently made a bris and they made us and and another couple kvatters. We only have girls and the other couple hasn't been married for long. My dh was surprised when I mentioned that it is often given to people who don't have a son yet. That some people feel uncomfortable doing it since it pointed out that they didn't have a son yet. He just viewed it as a honor you give people you like and people should just take it as that.

In terms of niddah or looking like niddah supposedly you can use an extra pillow and the husband just takes the second pillow with the baby on it.

amother

Coral

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 8:47 am

zaq wrote:

Being kvatter is an honor but I don't think people with infertility get offended- it's just uncomfortable and painful. Is that too hard to understand? And then when people give you comments or stares and tell stories of the wonders that have happened to other infertile couples and you've been paying and suffering through treatment after treatment and people look at you like- you don't need to do all that- just be kvatter- then yeh, not everyone will jump at the opportunity. I'm sorry that people being sensitive and inquiring about whether asking someone to be kvatter is hurtful makes you sick.

zaq

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 9:06 am

amother wrote:

I'm sorry that people being sensitive and inquiring about whether asking someone to be kvatter is hurtful makes you sick.

mommy3b2c

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 9:14 am

zaq wrote:

Well said.

amother

Coral

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 9:35 am

[quote="zaq"]Dan lechaf chovah much?

On the contrary, I applaud OP's asking. What makes me sick is the fact that the question needs to be asked. I am nauseated by the self-centeredness of people who can't see past their own situation, take offense when none was intended, and mistake an honor for condescension at best and an insult at worst. I also deplore nosy parkers who take an unholy interest in other people's reproductive state and draw conclusions from social gestures or lack thereof. The person offering kvatter/in is not trying to hurt you, humiliate you, rub your nose in it, or figure out if you are niddah or not. If you are unable, unwilling, uninterested or find it too painful to accept the HONOR--and it is an honor, not an insult, not an act of pity, and not an inquiry into your niddah state--be a grownup, thank them for the honor and express polite regrets that you cannot accept.[/quote

You are right that no one is intentionally trying to hurt the couple. The fact is, in many cases- and I'm not talking about the couples in Shana rishona- being kvatter is hard and painful which is why many times couples will turn it down. That makes the asker think maybe they were offended and wonder if it is right to ask. Which is why the question is being asked on this forum.
Asking someone to be kvatter is not an insult and I have never insinuated that. It is an honor but a tough pill to swallow and one that many people don't want to put themselves through.
I have been asked numerous times and always feel touched that we are being thought of, but don't want to go through the actual process because it is painful and humiliating (after doing it four times). I always am greatful and politely decline. Like a grownup Wink

But thank you for the lessons in manners and maturity.

amother

Periwinkle

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 9:52 am

[quote="amother"]

zaq wrote:

Dan lechaf chovah much?

On the contrary, I applaud OP's asking. What makes me sick is the fact that the question needs to be asked. I am nauseated by the self-centeredness of people who can't see past their own situation, take offense when none was intended, and mistake an honor for condescension at best and an insult at worst. I also deplore nosy parkers who take an unholy interest in other people's reproductive state and draw conclusions from social gestures or lack thereof. The person offering kvatter/in is not trying to hurt you, humiliate you, rub your nose in it, or figure out if you are niddah or not. If you are unable, unwilling, uninterested or find it too painful to accept the HONOR--and it is an honor, not an insult, not an act of pity, and not an inquiry into your niddah state--be a grownup, thank them for the honor and express polite regrets that you cannot accept.[/quote

You are right that no one is intentionally trying to hurt the couple. The fact is, in many cases- and I'm not talking about the couples in Shana rishona- being kvatter is hard and painful which is why many times couples will turn it down. That makes the asker think maybe they were offended and wonder if it is right to ask. Which is why the question is being asked on this forum.
Asking someone to be kvatter is not an insult and I have never insinuated that. It is an honor but a tough pill to swallow and one that many people don't want to put themselves through.
I have been asked numerous times and always feel touched that we are being thought of, but don't want to go through the actual process because it is painful and humiliating (after doing it four times). I always am greatful and politely decline. Like a grownup Wink

But thank you for the lessons in manners and maturity.

Well said. 👆🏻

amother

Plum

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 10:12 am

If you go out of your way to ask someone to be a Kvatter who you aren't 'close' with - you aren't looking at giving them an honor - you are holding that you have a segula to offer.

So if my dear friend offers me kvatter, its an honor - with the added benefit of the segula. If my neighbor who I speak to once a year offers it to me - she' doing so because she wants to offer me the benefit of a segula... Thats OK - Its actually very kind - and I don't think offensive is the right word - buts its more like - hey neighbor I have a limited opportunity gift and I think you are the right person to give it to - rather than I'd like to give you a kibbud - because who gives kibbuds to people they aren't close with?

When OP came back to reframe her question - It seemed to me she's coming at things from the perspective of 'I'd like to give Kvatter to someone who would really benefit from it' rather than 'I'd like to give kvatter to someone I'd like to honor'.

amother

Maroon

Wed, Jun 14 2017, 10:21 am

amother wrote:

We didn't want to be asked at all. We were only married for less than a year and people were already asking us to be kvatter like we were already marked as the infertile couple.

When people ask within the first year, they're not marking you as dealing with infertility, rather if it's a seguloh to have children, they hope you will be blessed with one too. Sometimes people find it easier to ask those recently married as no one is looking at them as dealing with infertility in which case sometimes they do not want to be kvatter.
I was asked a few months after marriage, and we agreed, and I totally did not feel that anyone was looking at us as "infertile" and that we couldn't have children.