Baltimore Mikvah more than doubled in price

amother

Lemon

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 9:55 am

Another Baltimore woman here.

DH runs a business. Sometimes we can afford to live, and other times we spend every spare moment dividing up payment plans, borrowing money, and trying to avoid bounced checks. I can totally understand how an extra $13 expense can throw you. Add $3 for bedika cloths and $35 for a bounced check since you hadn't known about the price increase, and it can really cause turmoil.

I don't have an answer and I will definitely NOT email Mr. Rosenbaum since I know him.

I once accidentally sent a check to the Mikva through my bank for a Shabbos dip for 12 cents rather than $12 and a man I know called me about it. I was so embarrassed. A woman should have called me!!!!!!!!

Well I'm grateful for my birth control pills and when I need a Nidah break I will tell my husband to pretend I'm a nida and then we will have a pretend Mikva night without the stress and cost of the Mikva, as I take my pills to remain clean for a long time. Obviously this doesn't work for those TTC or a host of other reasons.

Hugs to all of you for whom $13 extra dollars is a big deal. The rest of the women in this site have no clue how stressful it is to live like this.

Health is a Virture

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:03 am

12 dollars is ridiculously cheap. When I lived in Baltimore 17 years ago, I paid that amount (if not more--maybe I Just always paid 18 sta"m because that is the amount I seem to remember). In Israel, I pay at least 50 shekel. Anyway, I am more disturbed by how upset people are than by the actual hike in price. 25 dollars seems like a very reasonable price for a mikvah. Electricity, gas (depending how the heat works there), water, paying the baalanit, fixing things cost money.

Now, if I am upset about this and/or really feel that people are going to find, this to be too costly, speak to the head of the mikvah and explain the situation. Maybe, it can start an initiative of sponsor a lady or something like that. Baltimore is a very reasonable city; I can't imagine people being not allowed to come if they truly can't afford it. And, honestly, I really don't think the hike in price is due to the chandeliers. In many communities all over, there has been a very large want for mikvaos to be aesthetically pleasing. I am sure the upgrades were due to donations, and now that the mikvah is more pleasant, I guess they took it as an opportunity to raise the price to a more appropriate price.

But, please, if it really bothers you, speak to someone, write a letter---don't just sit and seethe!! Maybe they will lower the price if you say something....a lot of times people setting the prices don't realize that people actually count every dollar they give. they may be totally unaware that this is a problem at all, and just assume that people would rather pay more and have a better service (like more balanit)

amother

Powderblue

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:16 am

I agree with people who said to contact the mikvah. To the op- I had a situation where I didn't understand why an organization was doing what they were, I contacted someone in the know and realized that it was because they were desperate for funds so instead of decreasing my contribution I increased it. Before deciding to take your donations "elsehwere" hear what they have to say.

amother

cornflower

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:17 am

amother wrote:

The whole reason for the expansion was that baltimore grew exponentially. Shouldn't the influx of people be able to sustain the additional cost? If not then it obviously wasn't that many people and we didn't need it to be so huge.

I think you have a very valid point. If there's a large influx of people using the mikvah, shouldn't there be a large increase in their cash flow? Perhaps a slight increase would be justified for the increase in operations, but how does it explain a doubling of the fee, especially when they solicited contributions for the upgrade?

amother

Pink

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:22 am

amother wrote:

Wow. You seem very critical.

Do you even know anything about the cost of a mikvah before you make assumptions? My guess would be that they were running on a huge deficit before (as verified by the response email I see someone posted) and needed to raise the cost just to cover their expenses. Maybe the fancy chandeliers were donated by someone. Maybe one of their big monetary supporters stopped giving them money and they can't cover their costs anymore.. gosh. Why don't you find out more information before you just make judgement calls and publicly state your disgust for them.

The one thing I do agree on is that they should have given more notice.

Everyone here managed to stay polite. Why don't you go away if you can't be nice?

In answer to your question, my tzedakah money my choice. I made the mikvah a priority because I supported their decision to keep prices low for such an important mitzvah. Now that it is not the case anymore and their new fees are more than covering the cost I will take my tzedakah money elsewhere.

Yes I am critical of no advance notice and of not upping the price gradually. That is poor service and should never have happened.

Oh and who have I stated disgust for exactly? There was no personal attacks in my post although I can't say the same for you.

amother

Pink

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:29 am

Health is a Virture wrote:

I plan to contact them.

The issue is not the $25. It's the lack of communication, the sudden hike which should have been gradual, and the community wide fundraising that we all contributed to that should have covered the cost of the expansion.

Cmon be nice

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:58 am

tichellady wrote:

I don't live in Baltimore and I don't want to invalidate the op's feelings.

I do notice that amongst my friends and myself there is a trend to be resentful to pay for shul/mikvah type things as well as medical expenses but less of a resentment to pay for manicures/pedicures, nice food, makeup, shaitels etc. it's something I'm exploring with myself right now- why do I get annoyed about spending $25 on the mikvah or a $15 copay for a routine visit but I don't get upset about spending $5 on frozen yogurt multiple times this summer or the summer pedicure I got?

I haven't real all the responses but believe me, some of us dont have money for any of these

OOTBubby

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:07 am

amother wrote:

Nobody wants to tell the front desk thay they can't afford the extra $13. It's at the very least a little embarssing.
My feeling is that while $12 was a very cheap price, the mikvah is there to serve the community and if it was sustainable at $12 then it was unfair to do renovations and bump the price to $25. I'm sure many woman would have preferred the $12 fee and forget the renovations. At the end of the day there was a group of individuals who decided that it was fair and reasonable to buy fancy chandeliers and have everyone pay for it. Not fair. What if many of the woman don't want the chandeliers and would prefer to keep the price at $12?

I don't for sure that this is still the case as I am well past mikvah going age, but in our city, it was always the policy that if you couldn't afford it, you just handed a sealed envelope with whatever you could pay to the attendant and no one said anything.

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:21 am

Hashem_Yaazor wrote:

A few things....
1) Baltimore didn't increase their price for a long, long time....they should have gradually increased it vs doing it all at once.
2) They also should have notified people in advance
3) They definitely will not turn people away for lack of funding
4) The other mikvah in town is $36.
5) OOT mikvaos are NOT cheap, not sure why that was thought of as a "perk" to living in "OOT" Baltimore....
6) Incidentally, Cincinnati was mentioned, but there IS a second mikvah here...also $36 Wink

7) I think there should be an option for cheaper vs fancier rooms so people don't feel like they are paying for luxuries they don't care about.

I don't want to dis another city.* But I'm surprised that the price doubled without any warning.
When our city built a new mikvah families were asked to donate to the building fund. A family's donating $1000 led to this perk: $2 off mikvah. Which is $20 before the discount. (Yeah, 500 months before it pays off Wink

)

As for Hashem Yaazor's suggestion 7: I might think it's a go. Here there are some rooms with longer/bigger tubs for tall/big women - should those be levied an extra $1 for water? Idk, I think they're trying to gradually switch more over.

I've also heard of mikvah scholarships, people making donations to subsidize other women. If such a thing is offered, it should be with minimal requirements, IMO for the dignity of the women taking advantage of it.

*Not that I would dis my own. But I hope you all kwim.

Last edited by PinkFridge on Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:37 am; edited 1 time in total

PinkFridge

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:25 am

amother wrote:

OP here.

(although it was really my responsibility to research how they would spend it before donating).

I'm not sure if I agree with this.

ETA vs. starting a new post:
I think there was a valuable lesson here. If a service is being offered well below the standards EVERYWHERE else, it might be more of a chesed NOT to keep them so artificially low. Idk. Probably I would be most put off by the lack of notice but it seems pretty clear that something in the $20 range is necessary to keep a mikvah somewhat in the black (along with other fundraising, dinners, etc.).

groovy1224

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 1:02 pm

I agree that $12 is crazy cheap, but if they were running the mikvah at that price for so long at such a deficit, it was the management's negligence. To go from $12 to $25 with zero notification is outrageous. The response was nicely worded, and I sympathize, but where has this problem been all along?

As for the fancy reno, I wonder if they left surveys for mikvah patrons to vote on whether they'd rather Italian marble for a higher monthly fee, or home depot tile for a lower monthly fee. Somehow I doubt it.

I've also always believed that mikvahs should leave information in the prep rooms of how a woman should go about getting a subsidized rate. I see some people posting about 'the understanding' in their mikvah (I.e. giving the attendant a sealed envelope with partial payment in it), but a woman shouldn't have to ask about it at the front desk on a busy night, and she shouldn't have to ask her friend about it either. It's a humiliating addition to what is already a stressful night for many. Why can't they leave information about how to apply for a 'scholarship' in the rooms so that women can take care of it with privacy?

ces

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 1:02 pm

amother wrote:

This point was addressed in the email above. The previous fee was below cost. As the amount of ppl using the mikva increased, the deficit caused by charging less than cost increased to an unsustainable level.

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 7:30 pm

groovy1224 wrote:

I've also always believed that mikvahs should leave information in the prep rooms of how a woman should go about getting a subsidized rate. I see some people posting about 'the understanding' in their mikvah (I.e. giving the attendant a sealed envelope with partial payment in it), but a woman shouldn't have to ask about it at the front desk on a busy night, and she shouldn't have to ask her friend about it either. It's a humiliating addition to what is already a stressful night for many. Why can't they leave information about how to apply for a 'scholarship' in the rooms so that women can take care of it with privacy?

The bolded is a great idea. Things are really tight for us now, but I never thought I could go to the mikva and not pay the full price. When I was reading this thread I was wondering how I could find out about it without embarrassing myself. I know the lady at the front desk at my mikva and she's not someone I want to discuss my hardships with. It would be great if there was a different way to find out about it.

TeachersNotebook

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 9:55 pm

I want to make this point very clear because it doesn't seem that other posters have internalized it - the hike in fee was not to cover cosmetic expenses. This was not about a group of people deciding they'd rather Italian marble and then imposing that on the community.

I don't live in the community or know anyone involved in it's mikvah, but it seems apparent that the mikvah is truly operating l'shem shamayim with the best intentions. Aside from a management issue (running on a deficit for so long; lack of notice; etc.) the issue now becomes similar to the Jewish education problem: Jewish education is a necessity and a priority, but many people can't pay the cost to keep the institution running. What do we do about that as a community?

I've truly enjoyed reading the different ideas presented in this thread. Maybe community leaders should crowdsource their problems more often. Smile

mamaleh

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:10 pm

A couple of points based on my experience (in Lkwd):

1. I remember when Lakewood raised the fees. I asked why it hadn't been publicized (there was a message on the system when you called to make an appt but it was easy to not hear it if you already knew which buttons to press). I was told that they had a problem with any form of advertising because kids read everything.
Many parents don't tell their kids about Mikva (there was a long thread about what to tell when so I won't discuss it) and any ad about a change in price would cause way too many questions. How would someone explain to the kids what the Mikva fee was for. I didn't love not knowing in advance, but I understood.

2. There was a time period where we just didn't have the money. One month (toward the beginning of that time) I almost didn't go because by the time my DH found someone to borrow from, I was running late. I came in and the Mikva lady (who's known me-through the Mikva- for years) asked me if I was ok. I told her I almost didn't come because DH was late getting home with the $ (didn't tell her it was borrowed). She told me that I should NEVER not come because of $. The next time we just didn't have it. I told her I didn't have $. No problem. The phone system will tell you how much you owe, but the ladies NEVER say anything. When I said I felt bad about owing, they told me that there are people who owe 100s of dollars and they will never be turned away.

So, while the lack of notice is annoying, it might not have been avoidable and just like most Mikva ladies are trained to be sensitive about body issues, etc, they are also generally sensitive about financial issues as well, and they WANT you to come to the Mikva so they will do their best to make you comfortable.

amother

Cyan

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:16 pm

I live in Baltimore and was also taken aback by the sudden increase--but B"H I can afford to pay it. We did contribute towards the renovations of the mikvah--which were primarily intended to enlarge the capacity of the mikvah--increasing from 2 to 4 boros and many more prep rooms (possibly double the number, I don't know for sure). Once they were doing that, they also fixed up the old rooms.... Before the expansion, there were times--particularly on late summer evenings--when I had to wait in the waiting room for a while, but I think that all the extra space will make things much quicker and more streamlined.

When I was last there I was thinking of how much more it must cost them to run the mikvah. I have no idea if mikvah ladies are paid, but there are several new ones working recently. They must have tremendous water, gas and electric bills. Cleaning services for a facility that size must be large as well. I don't even know what other costs are associated.... Anyone who owns a house knows what maintenance can be like... they have to deal with all of that!

So, yes, I do think that the price increase was probably warranted--although surprising. I'm not even sure how they would have advertised the increase anyways--an ad in the Advertiser would be in poor taste, I think (Mommy, what's the mikvah that increased the price??) and a mailing to the whole community would just be an additional large expense.... I suppose they could have just put a sign in the mikvah a couple of months before letting people know that effective this date, the price will be going up....

I understand that for some families this increase can be very challenging. I like the idea someone suggested of having a locked box for women to put their payment in, so the mikvah lady doesn't need to know who paid the reduced fee....

amother

Dodgerblue

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 10:19 pm

mamaleh wrote:

2. There was a time period where we just didn't have the money. One month (toward the beginning of that time) I almost didn't go because by the time my DH found someone to borrow from, I was running late. I came in and the Mikva lady (who's known me-through the Mikva- for years) asked me if I was ok. I told her I almost didn't come because DH was late getting home with the $ (didn't tell her it was borrowed). She told me that I should NEVER not come because of $. The next time we just didn't have it. I told her I didn't have $. No problem. The phone system will tell you how much you owe, but the ladies NEVER say anything. When I said I felt bad about owing, they told me that there are people who owe 100s of dollars and they will never be turned away.

So, while the lack of notice is annoying, it might not have been avoidable and just like most Mikva ladies are trained to be sensitive about body issues, etc, they are also generally sensitive about financial issues as well, and they WANT you to come to the Mikva so they will do their best to make you comfortable.

Mamaleh, please tell me this the main Lakewood mikva on Madison. That's the one I use, and I never would have thought I can go and not pay, or not pay full price. I still don't know if I would actually be able to get myself to tell them I don't have the money, but the way things are going I might not have a choice soon.

seeker

Tue, Aug 15 2017, 11:26 pm

mamaleh wrote:

Ummm seriously? Kids do not know that a mikvah exists? In my community where I grew up the mikvah fundraisers were a huge deal. None of us needed any TMI on what was actually done in a mikvah.

My kids have asked about mikvah buildings we've passed on the street and I have explained to them that there are certain mitzvos grownups can do there. They haven't probed for many details yet but I'm comfortable enough putting them off when they do, with something like "it's a grownup topic, we'll talk about it later." They know about tevilas keilim but I've also made it clear enough that that's not the only thing that can be done at a mikvah. I think I said something like "for example, when we had to dip our new pots into water? So that's one kind of mitzvah. And other stuff like that." and they were fine. For all I know they're thinking it's some secret special place where people gather around a table and give tzedakah or something, they don't have such a huge frame of reference for "doing mitzvos." but as a concept, it works.

I really shouldn't hijack... carry on...