Trump's remarks | Imamother

sushilover

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:25 pm

WhatFor wrote:

On one side, we have armed (some with multiple guns) white supremacists, with the stated intention of increasing its base and getting rid of Jews and other minorites, invading a town they don't live in to promote violence, hate, and intolerance. They kill a person and injure almost twenty more, some critically.

On the other side, you have a bunch of town residents (and perhaps others) opposed to Nazism, some with balloons with ink and paint, sticks, and signs. Someone threw a newspaper stand at the Nazis.

I just don't see the moral justification of condemning both sides in this particular context.

On one side you have white supremacists who came ready for a fight and eager for violence.
On the other side you have antifa who came ready for a fight and eager for violence. Peaceful protestors don't cover their faces. They don't come armed with molotov cocktails and pepper spray and tear gas.

I'm not minimizing the vileness of the white nationalists. YOU are minimizing antifa.
Why can't you condemn all violence? Why is it that I am called a nazi for condemning violence? Why is it so difficult for so many leftists to say that violence is evil?
I would have to assume that you believe that violence is OK as long as it's coming from your side.

Miri7

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:30 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Human nature makes it difficult for people to admit they were wrong. It's probably harder for those who are more vested in the current presidency, people who have been his standard bearers since the primaries.

I can understand that reticence, but really at what cost? We're not talking a mere difference of opinion, we're talking about standing and saying no, the encroaching naziism in this country is not ok and I will stand against it. For a Jew, IMHO, that shouldn't be hard to do.

I agree.

I'm somewhat embarrassed to have responded and tried to justify my position in response to Fox, but I will let my post stand. Without looking at who is standing to my left or right, I will stand against Nazism in this country. They nearly killed an entire three generations of my family, and now they come for me, my children and my community?

Don't talk to me about antifa when I'm a Jew standing against Nazis.

WhatFor

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:31 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Honestly, the thing that most helped me calm down about this the Republican voices who unequivocally denounced what happened and took issue with Trump's response. His response was initially frightening because I felt like we were leaderless. If the US leader won't unequivocally condemn all people marching with Nazis, where is our country going?

In the US system of checks and balances, it gives me comfort to see that Republicans are willing to stand up against this. I'm sure many of these Republicans voted for Trump too, but that doesn't mean they have to stick by everything he says for his entire term. I do agree with Fox that you're not accountable to every word said or action committed by someone just because you voted for them.

You vote for someone based on what kind of president you hope they'll be; contrary to what this leader wanted, a vote wasn't a pledge of loyalty. If the person you voted for lets you down, tell them.

33055

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:31 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

We have to say no to the violence in protests. I find it despicable on all sides. I don't like the left protesting violently. I don't like the blacks rioting. I don't like Nazis either.

Why can't the left condemn violence? Or is it only ok when they do it?

sushilover

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:31 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

What wrongs do you want me to admit to?

Who here is not condemning Nazism? Again, it's egregious that we be called nazi defenders simply for denouncing violence on both sides.

WhatFor

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:39 pm

sushilover wrote:

What wrongs do you want me to admit to?

Who here is not condemning Nazism? Again, it's egregious that we be called nazi defenders simply for denouncing violence on both sides.

For many people, the moral equivalence you're trying to draw between armed Nazis who organized a rally to further their goal of eliminating Jews and minorites and the people who showed up to protest Nazis in response gives an appearance of minimizing Nazi ideologies.

Many of us are failing to understand the equivalence.

shoshanim999

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:42 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

Absolutely. People don't switch sides that easily when it comes to issues like race, religion, and politics. I agree, short of Trump walking around waving a Nazi flag, most of his supporters will continue to support him. But this is a human condition that applies to most people. The Clinton supporters would never abandon her. When video came out that Obama's pastor spewed open racist and anti semetic rhetoric, do you think his supporters abandoned him? Why in the mid 90's did close to 90% of black people support o.j. Simpson's acquittal in the face of overwhelming evidence? Do you think had there been more evidence they would have seen the obvious? Of course not. Trump supporters will continue to support him pretty much regardless of anything he says or does.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:48 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I just don't see the moral justification of condemning both sides in this particular context.

Let's be honest: this thread isn't really about Nazis, white supremacists, or Antifa. It's about your dislike of President Trump. You've started multiple threads since the election on similar topics, each with the primary thesis, "Isn't he awful?"

I think we've all gotten the message: you dislike Trump intensely and are vigilant for examples of his awfulness.

I was personally not pleased with some of Trump's comments. I think "good people" on both sides went home rather than allying themselves with loathesome demonstrators on either side. However, I also don't believe his comments revealed any hidden endorsement of white supremacy, however much the Nazis and Klan would like to claim that they did.

But I do believe Trump is right about one thing: I don't think there is anything he could have said or done that would have satisfied people who hate him. Immediately opening up a DOJ case didn't appease anyone. Repeatedly disavowing white supremacists didn't appease anyone -- though I can't imagine why he should pander to the left's conspiracy theories in the first place. Being careful not to make statements that contradict the legal definition of "terrorism" didn't impress anyone.

So what would it have taken? What response from the Trump administration would have made you say, "Huh. He handled that surprisingly well"?

sushilover

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:50 pm

WhatFor wrote:

Had they simply protested, I would applaud them. But antifa does not protest. They use militant protest tactics.
watch a few videos of the protest. The violence was not one-sided.

Someone asked if I would "change the topic" if it were Palestinians vs. Israelis. If an Israeli movement (maybe Hilltop Youth? I don't know too much about them..) were using violence, calling for the Palestinians to be beaten, and actually beating them while the Palestinians had some despicable and violent march, I would condemn both sides for violence. Wouldn't you?
And no that wouldn't make me a Palestinian apologist.

Last edited by sushilover on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total

MagentaYenta

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:53 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

Well ya know Hilary's supporters never wanted to eliminate the Jews and certainly Rev. Wright was a man of his times, heck ya got Jessee calling us hymies for goodness sake. And really Hilary isn't at issue here, nor is her campaign. But many decades later Americans (regardless of faith) should step up and do the right thing and denounce Spencer, Bannon and all the nazis that are held dear by this administration. I had hoped the president would, but it seems futile. Trump not giving up his base although many who helped elect him think he should.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:54 pm

WhatFor wrote:

After having said that you are unfamiliar with Antifa.

Just as you believe some of us are giving the appearance of minimizing Nazi ideologies, you and other posters have admitted that you are uninformed and naive about Antifa ideology and its connection with Stalinist/Maoist ideals.

It seems perfectly obvious to me that both Nazis and Stalinist/Maoists should be condemned. Apparently you disagree.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 6:59 pm

MagentaYenta wrote:

But many decades later Americans (regardless of faith) should step up and do the right thing and denounce Spencer, Bannon and all the nazis that are held dear by this administration.

Trump condemned Spencer's beliefs repeatedly. Mentioning him by name would simply give him extraordinary publicity.

Lumping Steve Bannon and "all the nazis" in with Spencer is truly crossing a line. Please save charges of anti-Semitism and affinity for Nazis for situations in which it truly exists -- not just for people with whom you disagree politically.

WhatFor

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:07 pm

Fox wrote:

I'm looking at your response and considering how to respond. It's a textbook example of an ad hominem attack- deflecting from responding to what I would think was a legitimate concern about growing Nazism, and attacking the messenger.

Your argument is a claim about my own moral motives, as though I lack the capacity to genuinely fear Nazism and oppose white supremacists. You attempt to invalidate my emotions and fear in response to a Nazi march, reducing it to an unreasonable bias against a leader, rather than a reasonable fear of invigorated white supremacists in the United States.

It would be pretty easy to respond to your baseless presumed insight into my motives in starting this thread. But it would also further distract from the discussion of a genuine issue here that is neither about me nor is it about you.

Last edited by WhatFor on Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:08 pm; edited 1 time in total

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:08 pm

WhatFor wrote:

I believe that some feel uncomfortable with the fact that these people are self-professed Trump supporters, so they need to keep bringing up people who are anti-Trump who they believe are also reprehensible to try to minimize the fact that a portion of Trump supporters hold a despicable ideology.

Because many people feel Antifa and other leftists are more dangerous in the long run than neo-Nazis and Klansmen.

Now, reasonable people can disagree about that. I've discussed it many times in various threads, and I know that Marina, for example, disagrees with me. That's perfectly fine. There are arguments on both sides.

But get the facts. Don't make up pseudo-psychological theories to fit your dislike of Trump.

SixOfWands

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:10 pm

shoshanim999 wrote:

The Republicans referred to Jeremy Wright as a race baiter and hate monger. Sadly, Trump will not do the same of the Nazis. Obama also denounced Wright. “I reject outright the statements by Rev. Wright that are at issue.” It was possible to condemn Wright and still support Obama.

Trump's Chief Strategist proudly declared that he published was "the platform for the alt-right," and proudly celebrated white supremacists. Not only has Trump not denounced him, he continues as Trump's chief strategist.

Trump himself was one of the chief proponents of the racist birther movement. He hasn't denounced it.

Trump gave press credentials to Info Wars (Alex Jones). The guy who claims that there weren't Nazis in Charlottesville, just Jewish actors. Who claimed the Sandy Hook massacre was also actors, and harassed people who lost their babies. Who claims that Israel was actually behind 9/11. Because CNN and the NY Times are "fake news," but Info Wars is apparently fine and dandy.

During the 2016 campaign, Trump attacked a federal judge who had prosecuted drug traffickers in a previous job by calling him "Mexican" (he was born in Indiana, but of Mexican heritage) and suggesting that he was sympathetic to Mexican cartels; asserted that Mexican immigrants are disproportionately likely to commit rapes; defended the internment of Japanese Americans during WWII (“I would have had to be there at the time to tell you, to give you a proper answer ... I certainly hate the concept of it. But I would have had to be there at the time to give you a proper answer.”); reiterated his belief that the Central Park Five are guilty despite their having been legally exonerated; and approvingly repeated an apocryphal story about an American officer putting down an insurrection in the Philippines by executing Muslims using bullets dipped in pigs' blood.

There's just no equivalence here.

Amarante

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:18 pm

Fox wrote:

You are so up in your right wing paranoia that you don't see danger in front of your nose.

Statistically, the white supremacists have been responsible for far more deaths and injuries than the far left. I am citing this article from the Cato Institute which even you must acknowledge has impeccable far right credentials.

https://www.cato.org/blog/terr.....tacks

If you are truly more afraid of the danger the left poses to American democracy and to YOU as a Jewish woman, I don't know what to say.

Why are you so intent on defending white supremacists and the Klan. Why can't you acknowledge, along with almost everyone except the altright sympathizers that there was no moral equivalence in Charlottesville.

I'm not even counting the number of blacks lynched up to and including those in the Civil Rights Movement during the 1960's.

Leo Frank was lynched in 1915 - a time when many of these "historic" statues in support of white supremacy were erected.

WhatFor

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:18 pm

Fox wrote:

By way of clarification: this was a thread about a rally organized by the KKK, Nazis, and other white supremacists who murdered an innocent woman and injured dozens more. This thread was also about the president's concerning comments about there being good people marching with the Nazis.

If you would like to start a conversation about other groups that you believe are a threat to our nation, please start your own thread instead of hijacking this one.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:19 pm

WhatFor wrote:

What evidence do you have that Nazism is growing?

Why do you fear Nazism and white supremacists more than Antifa?

Where is your evidence that white supremacists are "invigorated" in any meaningful way?

Why do you want to delegitimize the experiences of people who are familiar with leftist anti-Semitism?

I have no idea of your motives. I only know that you are consistently the individual who starts these threads. This is not a one-time thing. This is not about what happened in Charlottesville. You start these threads every month or two. Now you are positing made-up theories about why some people are equally disturbed by Nazis and Antifa -- this after admitting that you're not familiar with Antifa.

Fox

Wed, Aug 16 2017, 7:23 pm

Amarante wrote:

Why are you so intent on defending white supremacists and the Klan. Why can't you acknowledge, along with almost everyone except the altright sympathizers that there was no moral equivalence in Charlottesville.

Okay, I'll bow out. This is a lie.

I am not defending white supremacists, I am attacking people who are perfectly okay with Stalinists/Maoists -- just as long as they're also against the Nazis.

Apparently you subscribe to the old adage, "On the left, no enemies; on the right, no friends."

If you think Antifa and its sympathizers are not your enemy, you won't need to worry about neo-Nazis in the future.